Good comments. I like constructive arguments or trying to figure stuff out amongst one another.
So, why is "The Jerk" not a masterpiece then? It's a comedy and it leaves you in stitches. It sounds like you love it. Based on that, the film seems like it is directed, acted and paced in a way where you respond very well to it-with hilarious results infact. As comedic entertainment, that is it's job. It seems that, for you, it does this very well.
There is no reason whatsoever I can see that you shouldn't give The Jerk a very high rating and consider it a great film.
It's important to realize that the purpose of art is communication and if it does this-no matter how crude a form it comes in, it is art. The degree that it communicates monitors it's brilliance.
I find the album "Astral Weeks" to be gut-wrenchingly dramatic, sometimes even tear-jerking. I could practically fall in love with Van Morrison for making the album. I could say the same thing of "Blue" by Joni Mitchell (of which I find to be somewhat similar in structure and feel).
I also know of girls who have gone to concerts and watched the Backstreet Boys/N' Sync (I hardly know the difference), and practically fainted, cried-whatever.
I may get asassinated soon for saying this but, in this instance the art of the Backstreet Boys is absolutely comparable to that of Van Morrison, as the effect created by each was similar as regards to communication from one human being to another. Whether I want to agree with it or not, they are each capable of the same effect.
About "The Jerk": Here is a film that was one of the worst reviewed films of the year of its release (2002? 2003?) yet you find it great. This, in itself is proof that there is no "best" over "favorite". Don't fool yourself into thinking "The Jerk" is not a great film. You find it great. Is there another criteria?
If so, please delineate your criteria for choosing a "best film" versus a "favorite film".
I saw the argument above on "best" vs. "favorite". Let me give this a try...
I'll keep it simple:
"Best" is simply the highest degree of likeness or affection towards something.
"Favorite" is simply the highest degree of likeness or affection towards somthing.
Both are based on opinion.
It takes an opinion to make judgements on things. NOT FACTS. Facts are inarguable. FACTS ARE FACTS. Best and Favorite are degrees, opinions. FACTS are absolutes. Absolutes, authority, the like, have no place in the world of art, as the field, and judgements upon it are entirely cultured from one's emotional response, affection, feelings, etc. one gets out of it. Therefore "best" and "favorite" are simply how one feels about a certain work or something, anything. There truly is no one all-encompassing "best film" or "best album", etc. Personally I'd probably rank "Citizen Kane" and "Pet Sounds" #1 respectively. But another guy I know wouldn't consider either. We're both right. To him, such and such is #1. To me, "Citizen Kane" and "Pet Sounds" are. My selections aren't BETTER, except to me and those who may agree with me.
Since judging art is solely and utterly a matter of opinion there is no actual difference between
"best" and "favorite" and those who suggest there is are merely attempting to find organization and authority in a field that is entirely open to personal interpretation to determine it's value.
Break down why you like a certain film. It will never be anything other than opinion, no matter how scientific you attempt to be with it. Your degree of affection towards camera work, acting, whatever, is solely being judged by you and is opinion. Great camera work, art direction, no matter how technical, is still based on opinion when critiqued. That is: purely emotional likeness or affection towards something. You see, there is no "right" or "wrong" here, except within you and you're personal integrity and certainty upon which you base your opinion. Try it: think about your favorite film: You like the actors? Yes. Why? Because I thought he really made it seem real the way he acted like..." Opinion. How about the camera work? "Oh yes, the movement of the camera was quick and really relayed each scene..." Opinion. The only fact is that it is a FILM. That is all. Anything past that is an alteration, addition (great film), subtraction (bad film) and therefore is open to interpretation since it is only supported by interpretation. I could tell you Citizen Kane is a film. Inalterable. FACT. I could tell you Citizen Kane is the greatest film. Opinion.
Conclusion: "best" and "favorite" are absolutely the same thing, so arguments over "which one" are pointless. One's best film is also his favorite film and if one alters one or the other he is just not being self-determined in his viewpoint. If one feels, say "Titanic" is the film he enjoyed most, yet "Children Of Paradise" is "better" because he finds it more artistically accomplished, he is just kidding himself. He is simply in agreement with a separate person or source who said something convincing about it. This particular thing or things (whether art direction, acting, or anything) that was said to make "Children Of Paradise" so great is not actually evident to this person who says "Children Of Paradise" is the "better" film or he would actually find it more enjoyable than "Titanic" as well. The truth is that if this person saw each, one after the other, without having ever heard any so-called "authority" on the merits of either, he would judge solely on his view of the films and in his case "Titanic" would be his "favorite" and the "best" film, as they are the same darn thing!
I'm tired and hope I've made a point, even if I did just repeat myself over and over in more dissecting ways. Thanks for giving my mind a twist. It needed the work out.
I really like the diversity of your picks! Picking King Kong & Bride Of Frankenstein were
especially brave (but accurate).
Ever try "L'Atalante"?
Truly among the greatest films ever made (watch it on DVD as a decent VHS copy is impossible to find)
The film has few "bells and whistles" but is so realistic in its depiction of human nature that you could forget you're watching a film and may think it's a reel to reel navigation of the simple, honest tale of a couple. It's because of this that its few breathtaking moments spring to life magically and grant the film a special sort of elementary sadness not before or since duplicated by any director. Jean Vigo was certainly in his own league, if only for a short time.
kenji, this is a phenomenal list!! I am extremely impressed!
Rarely have I seen such a comprehensive and deserving films on a list such as this. Though I've heard or seen most of the films on here, I can definitely use it as a guide for those I found that I haven't.
yes, yes, yes...What's Going On is THE 70's masterpiece. It deserves to be spoken of in hushed tones like some sort of rare diamond.
The amazing thing about it is how much more relevant it sounds with the passing of time.
The Beatles?
Bob Dylan?
Elvis?
The Rolling Stones?
Jimi Hendrix?
The Velvet Undeground?
Nirvana?
Led Zeppelin?
Chuck Berry?
Marvin Gaye?
Stevie Wonder?
Aretha Franklin?
Bob Marley?
Public Enemy?
The Who?
Pixies?
R.E.M?
The Doors?
Love?
You're absolutely right. Music criticism, picks, "greatest of all time"-you name it-it's all an opinion. Neil Young is a fantastic artist. Tonight's the Night holds a special place in my heart for actually being the first "classic" album I purchased. I'd never heard it before, and one day I just decided to buy it-it just seemed like it would be great and I'd heard it was supposed to be one of Young's best. Over the years it has remained one of my favorite albums. My favorite songs are probably "Albaquerque" and "Tonight's the Night". It is undeniably among the most stirring performances in all of rock. I'm not sure but I think it was mostly recorded live, or without second takes. It sure sounds like it (which is a plus point!) That it barely missed my top 50 doesn't mean it's not one of the greatest albums ever made. It's simply the misfortune of me assigning an arbitrary number-I had to stop somewhere-50 happens to be a good number. 75 seemed excessive and 100 would get ridiculous for a poll. It already takes long enough to scroll through this thing. In any case, I can't really argue with you that all 3 of his best deserve to be in a top 50. The difference in quality between the picks that made it in and those albums is very miniscule. There just happens to be 50 or so albums I find slightly better-that's all. As for Bone Thugs n' Harmony, they're pretty darn good also. Thanks for your comments. Feel free to make as many as you wish. Thanks for your votes too, keep 'em coming!
The ONLY reason Neil Young isn't on the list is I decided to limit the picks to 50 and that cut him short a bit. If it were 60, then Tonight's the Night would've definitely made it. 75: Add in After the Goldrish and Harvest as well.
Trans Europe Express is the best "techno/electronica" album ever made. "It Takes A Nation..." is the best rap album. I happen to enjoy all music styles (some much more than others, but all of them nonetheless.) Both of these albums are masterpieces and absolutely deserve to be in the top 50, even if they're unlikely to get picked as the greatest album ever made.
Good to see What's Going On and Exile getting a vote each. These are very worthy picks. The murkiness and beautiful-ugliness of Main Street is undeniable while the soaring, God-like intensity of What's Going On remains an astonishing testament to outstanding production values and wonderfully sympathetic vocals.
I'm a bit surprised that Forever Changes by Love, Revolver by The Beatles and The Stone Roses each don't have a vote yet.
I have to say though-I'm impressed by what has been voted for.
Although I don't consider Blood On The Tracks THE greatest album ever, it's definately not far off, and it's kind of fun to see the underdog take the lead anyway.
Thanks for your two cents!
Have you checked out Forever Changes by Love, What's Going On by Marvin Gaye and Innervisions by Stevie Wonder yet?
Good comments. I like constructive arguments or trying to figure stuff out amongst one another.
So, why is "The Jerk" not a masterpiece then? It's a comedy and it leaves you in stitches. It sounds like you love it. Based on that, the film seems like it is directed, acted and paced in a way where you respond very well to it-with hilarious results infact. As comedic entertainment, that is it's job. It seems that, for you, it does this very well.
There is no reason whatsoever I can see that you shouldn't give The Jerk a very high rating and consider it a great film.
It's important to realize that the purpose of art is communication and if it does this-no matter how crude a form it comes in, it is art. The degree that it communicates monitors it's brilliance.
I find the album "Astral Weeks" to be gut-wrenchingly dramatic, sometimes even tear-jerking. I could practically fall in love with Van Morrison for making the album. I could say the same thing of "Blue" by Joni Mitchell (of which I find to be somewhat similar in structure and feel).
I also know of girls who have gone to concerts and watched the Backstreet Boys/N' Sync (I hardly know the difference), and practically fainted, cried-whatever.
I may get asassinated soon for saying this but, in this instance the art of the Backstreet Boys is absolutely comparable to that of Van Morrison, as the effect created by each was similar as regards to communication from one human being to another. Whether I want to agree with it or not, they are each capable of the same effect.
About "The Jerk": Here is a film that was one of the worst reviewed films of the year of its release (2002? 2003?) yet you find it great. This, in itself is proof that there is no "best" over "favorite". Don't fool yourself into thinking "The Jerk" is not a great film. You find it great. Is there another criteria?
If so, please delineate your criteria for choosing a "best film" versus a "favorite film".
I saw the argument above on "best" vs. "favorite". Let me give this a try...
I'll keep it simple:
"Best" is simply the highest degree of likeness or affection towards something.
"Favorite" is simply the highest degree of likeness or affection towards somthing.
Both are based on opinion.
It takes an opinion to make judgements on things. NOT FACTS. Facts are inarguable. FACTS ARE FACTS. Best and Favorite are degrees, opinions. FACTS are absolutes. Absolutes, authority, the like, have no place in the world of art, as the field, and judgements upon it are entirely cultured from one's emotional response, affection, feelings, etc. one gets out of it. Therefore "best" and "favorite" are simply how one feels about a certain work or something, anything. There truly is no one all-encompassing "best film" or "best album", etc. Personally I'd probably rank "Citizen Kane" and "Pet Sounds" #1 respectively. But another guy I know wouldn't consider either. We're both right. To him, such and such is #1. To me, "Citizen Kane" and "Pet Sounds" are. My selections aren't BETTER, except to me and those who may agree with me.
Since judging art is solely and utterly a matter of opinion there is no actual difference between
"best" and "favorite" and those who suggest there is are merely attempting to find organization and authority in a field that is entirely open to personal interpretation to determine it's value.
Break down why you like a certain film. It will never be anything other than opinion, no matter how scientific you attempt to be with it. Your degree of affection towards camera work, acting, whatever, is solely being judged by you and is opinion. Great camera work, art direction, no matter how technical, is still based on opinion when critiqued. That is: purely emotional likeness or affection towards something. You see, there is no "right" or "wrong" here, except within you and you're personal integrity and certainty upon which you base your opinion. Try it: think about your favorite film: You like the actors? Yes. Why? Because I thought he really made it seem real the way he acted like..." Opinion. How about the camera work? "Oh yes, the movement of the camera was quick and really relayed each scene..." Opinion. The only fact is that it is a FILM. That is all. Anything past that is an alteration, addition (great film), subtraction (bad film) and therefore is open to interpretation since it is only supported by interpretation. I could tell you Citizen Kane is a film. Inalterable. FACT. I could tell you Citizen Kane is the greatest film. Opinion.
Conclusion: "best" and "favorite" are absolutely the same thing, so arguments over "which one" are pointless. One's best film is also his favorite film and if one alters one or the other he is just not being self-determined in his viewpoint. If one feels, say "Titanic" is the film he enjoyed most, yet "Children Of Paradise" is "better" because he finds it more artistically accomplished, he is just kidding himself. He is simply in agreement with a separate person or source who said something convincing about it. This particular thing or things (whether art direction, acting, or anything) that was said to make "Children Of Paradise" so great is not actually evident to this person who says "Children Of Paradise" is the "better" film or he would actually find it more enjoyable than "Titanic" as well. The truth is that if this person saw each, one after the other, without having ever heard any so-called "authority" on the merits of either, he would judge solely on his view of the films and in his case "Titanic" would be his "favorite" and the "best" film, as they are the same darn thing!
I'm tired and hope I've made a point, even if I did just repeat myself over and over in more dissecting ways. Thanks for giving my mind a twist. It needed the work out.
Any questions? Comments?
I really like the diversity of your picks! Picking King Kong & Bride Of Frankenstein were
especially brave (but accurate).
Ever try "L'Atalante"?
Truly among the greatest films ever made (watch it on DVD as a decent VHS copy is impossible to find)
The film has few "bells and whistles" but is so realistic in its depiction of human nature that you could forget you're watching a film and may think it's a reel to reel navigation of the simple, honest tale of a couple. It's because of this that its few breathtaking moments spring to life magically and grant the film a special sort of elementary sadness not before or since duplicated by any director. Jean Vigo was certainly in his own league, if only for a short time.
Great picks! Here's my picks:
1. Sunrise-Murneau
2. Battleship Potemkin-Eisenstein
3. The Passion Of Joan Arc-Dreyer
4. The General-Keaton
5. City Lights-Chaplin
Ah well, I was hoping to be more original. I guess the best ARE the best, regardless of how rarely they're overlooked.
Wow! Revolver came out of nowhere. Great choice!
As of today, it is a tie between What's Going On and Revolver with Pet Sounds behind by a vote. Great picks!
Not on the list because it's not good enough. But that's just me. If you think it is, right on. It's certainly a very good album.
kenji, this is a phenomenal list!! I am extremely impressed!
Rarely have I seen such a comprehensive and deserving films on a list such as this. Though I've heard or seen most of the films on here, I can definitely use it as a guide for those I found that I haven't.
Thank you for your entry!
yes, yes, yes...What's Going On is THE 70's masterpiece. It deserves to be spoken of in hushed tones like some sort of rare diamond.
The amazing thing about it is how much more relevant it sounds with the passing of time.
Wow! Some great picks there. I like your equal mix of jazz and pop. That's how it should be (although I've never been able to totally do it so far).
Perhaps I scrolled too quickly, but I didn't see Forever Changes by Love on there. Have you checked that out?
Cool. Keep listening to 'em. Those are some good choices.
Some great picks, but what about:
The Beatles?
Bob Dylan?
Elvis?
The Rolling Stones?
Jimi Hendrix?
The Velvet Undeground?
Nirvana?
Led Zeppelin?
Chuck Berry?
Marvin Gaye?
Stevie Wonder?
Aretha Franklin?
Bob Marley?
Public Enemy?
The Who?
Pixies?
R.E.M?
The Doors?
Love?
to name a few...
You're absolutely right. Music criticism, picks, "greatest of all time"-you name it-it's all an opinion. Neil Young is a fantastic artist. Tonight's the Night holds a special place in my heart for actually being the first "classic" album I purchased. I'd never heard it before, and one day I just decided to buy it-it just seemed like it would be great and I'd heard it was supposed to be one of Young's best. Over the years it has remained one of my favorite albums. My favorite songs are probably "Albaquerque" and "Tonight's the Night". It is undeniably among the most stirring performances in all of rock. I'm not sure but I think it was mostly recorded live, or without second takes. It sure sounds like it (which is a plus point!) That it barely missed my top 50 doesn't mean it's not one of the greatest albums ever made. It's simply the misfortune of me assigning an arbitrary number-I had to stop somewhere-50 happens to be a good number. 75 seemed excessive and 100 would get ridiculous for a poll. It already takes long enough to scroll through this thing. In any case, I can't really argue with you that all 3 of his best deserve to be in a top 50. The difference in quality between the picks that made it in and those albums is very miniscule. There just happens to be 50 or so albums I find slightly better-that's all. As for Bone Thugs n' Harmony, they're pretty darn good also. Thanks for your comments. Feel free to make as many as you wish. Thanks for your votes too, keep 'em coming!
Thanks for the response.
The ONLY reason Neil Young isn't on the list is I decided to limit the picks to 50 and that cut him short a bit. If it were 60, then Tonight's the Night would've definitely made it. 75: Add in After the Goldrish and Harvest as well.
Trans Europe Express is the best "techno/electronica" album ever made. "It Takes A Nation..." is the best rap album. I happen to enjoy all music styles (some much more than others, but all of them nonetheless.) Both of these albums are masterpieces and absolutely deserve to be in the top 50, even if they're unlikely to get picked as the greatest album ever made.
Good to see What's Going On and Exile getting a vote each. These are very worthy picks. The murkiness and beautiful-ugliness of Main Street is undeniable while the soaring, God-like intensity of What's Going On remains an astonishing testament to outstanding production values and wonderfully sympathetic vocals.
I'm a bit surprised that Forever Changes by Love, Revolver by The Beatles and The Stone Roses each don't have a vote yet.
I have to say though-I'm impressed by what has been voted for.
Keep 'em coming!
It's good to see your vote!
Although I don't consider Blood On The Tracks THE greatest album ever, it's definately not far off, and it's kind of fun to see the underdog take the lead anyway.
Thanks for your two cents!
Have you checked out Forever Changes by Love, What's Going On by Marvin Gaye and Innervisions by Stevie Wonder yet?