The Beatles and Folk Rock.
The Beatles were the source that made the Byrds and others go electric. Roger McGuinn studied what made the Beatles sound different. He noticed in their sound was chord changes common to folk music. That combined with a energetic rock band made them sound different. Every typical Beatles' song has at least one rather unconventional chord progression. Often there are more and sometimes the chord sequences even come close to endangering the songs' musical comprehensibility. There is, however, some kind of harmonic structure beneath these remarkable chord progressions, preventing this to happen. Here are albums and songs that helped shaped folk rock.
The Beatles, Meet the Beatles (1964, Capitol). Not a folk-rock album, but the one record that more than any other awakened young American folk musicians to the possibilities of electric rock music. The Meet the Beatles LP, as opposed to With the Beatles (their second British LP, which has much of the same material and is the one that was reissued on CD), is what's necessary to re-create the impact, as it's almost wholly devoted to original songs, including two great ones ("I Want to Hold Your Hand" and "I Saw Her Standing There") that don't appear on With the Beatles.
The Beatles, A Hard Day's Night (1964, Capitol). Songs from and recorded right after the making of the movie of the same name, which was about as influential on early folk-rock musicians as the Meet the Beatles album was. You can hear some folky influences creeping into their work, too, on songs like "Things We Said Today" and "I'll Be Back."
The Beatles, Beatles for Sale (1964, Capitol). More music that, if only unconsciously, continued to help bring folk and rock closer together, explicitly so on "I'm a Loser" and "I'll Follow the Sun."
The Beatles, Help! (1965, Capitol). A fine album on any terms, as all Beatles albums are. Within the context of folk-rock, it's notable for several songs that show a definite folk-rock influence, like "You've Got to Hide Your Away" and "I've Just Seen a Face," as well as the appearance (not influenced by the Byrds) of a prototypical ringing 12-string electric guitar riff in "Ticket to Ride."
The Beatles, Rubber Soul (1965, Capitol). The Beatles' most strongly folk-rock-influenced album, from Lennon-McCartney songs like "Norwegian Wood" and "I'm Looking Through You" to George Harrison's Byrds homage "If I Needed Someone."
The Beatles, Unsurpassed Demos (1991, Yellow Dog, bootleg). Twenty-four acoustic White Album demos, recorded in May 1968 at George Harrison's house, including songs they wrote in India while they and Donovan were studying with the Maharishi. This is the chance to hear the Beatles as an unplugged band, highly enjoyable as well as educational, and often bootlegged in part or whole under different titles as well.
I agree that the Beatles were relatively folky as far as rock goes even in their early days, but the same goes for most Merseybeat bands - via the skiffle influence.
And the stuff they did in 1964 which might be considered real folk-rock prercursors had precedents in other bands who were even closer to the style - even if we go beyond the mere merger of folk and rock and count the jingle jangle sound.
The full-blown folk-rock style wouldn't have "happened" if not for the Beatles - so they were the "source" as you say - but that's mostly attributed to the fact that folkies who heard them wanted to build on that concept as they saw it in the Beatles' music (and without kmowing about other more folk-rocky precursors).
Regarding some of the songs you mention: I'll Follow the Sun is a folky ballad but nothing to do with rock or folk-rock. Same goes for You've Got To Hide Your Love Away, I've Just Seen a Face, and Norwegian Wood - the first one is a Dylanish folk song, the second is just bluegrass-ish, and the third is an Indian drone-influenced FOLK song. And while Ticket to Ride manages to do what it does without the influence of the Byrds (whom they hadn't heard at the time, that doesn't change the fact that Mr. Tambourine Man came first (and the Searchers predated all of the Beatles' earlier jangly tunes).
You don't seem to understand that the Beatles style was much different than the Searchers. The Beatles jangle style done only briefly was much cleaner than the Searchers or the Who for that matter. The Byrds based their jangle sound on the Beatles A Hard Days Night or I Call Her Name. The Searchers sound is more closer to You Can't Do That or I Can't Explain by the Who.
but that's mostly attributed to the fact that folkies who heard them wanted to build on that concept as they saw it in the Beatles' music (and without kmowing about other more folk-rocky precursors.
The Searchers sound does not anyway rock or have the instrumental energy of the Beatles and that was the key element with a folksy influence which influenced folkies to go electric. You are strongly forgetting the energy part of the Beatles music. The Beatles had the right combination of rock and folk in their music.
The jangle sound was not invented by the Byrds so get real the Searchers and the Beatles did it before them.
Either way the Beatles were ahead of both fronts since it was 1965 it was popular and the Beatles were the act that influenced both the jangle sound and the folk rock sound.
You're contradicting yourself here.
First you're saying the Searchers' sound is not quite jingle jangle at all -- and that the sound didn't exist uder the Beatles, who made a "cleaner" version of the Searchers -- then you're saying that the Searchers beat the Byrds to the jangle sound.
If the "clean" part were true (and I don't think so, because I'm speaking not just of Needles and Pins), then this whole debate would be meaningless. All it would show is that the jingle jangle sound is just a watered down and "safer" version of an already existing sound, it's only significance being that it was widespread.
Regardless of the fact that they did it before it was "popular", the point is rock had already absorbed stronger doses of folk than are present in the Beatles' proto-folk rockers (check out Richie Unterberger's book for example). Also rock had already made use of jingle jangle (or at least the aspects of it which might make it interesting) and had already combined these two things.
The information that I got is from Richie Unterberger. I guess you did not notice it. He also in his research says that most folkies were more influenced by the Beatles than Dylan especially when it came to going electric.
The Byrd went electric because of the Beatles jangle sound and their instruemntal energy and folksy sound. The Searchers sound is not even close to being as hard as the Beatles.
The Beatles jangle sound was cleaner there is really no hint of dirtiness in the sound like the Searchers. Thats was how McGuinn wanted his guitar sound to be like. Why on earth are you disputing the facts is beyond me?
Ok give me an example that resembles the instrumental energy with folk influence of She Loves or I Want to Hold Your Hand that the folk artist like Dylan and McGuiin heard.
Man - I think you're way too hung up on "influence". It doesn't mean anything. All it says is who was the artist whose music made the second artist say "I want to do something like that". It doesn't mean that the first one is "responsible" for the second's creativity or that either the first or the second are interesting to begin with. (I mean, that's like saying the Sunset Strip Riots were an important rock band because they inspired Buffalo Springfield's "For What It's Worth).
It seems the talk about "influence" is only significant because it points out that the second artist had a precedent of some sort and wasn't completely original. But it's that mere fact which should matter, not the influence per say. So an artist doing something interesting and doing it 'first' but without being heard by the public is still just as significant - to the extent that he or she makes similar stuff which came afterward less groundbreaking.
All you're saying about the clean/dirty thing is that the Beatles' sound was new because it was a cleaner version of the Searchers. Let's just say that's true. That still doesn't say anything about how interesting the souund was. All it says is that it is the sound that became "iconic" (since it came to be widespread through the Beatles' and then the Byrds' influence) and that we shouldn't deny that this specific "iconic" sound is owed to the Beatles. You might as well say that the Searchers invented an interesting guitar timbre and then later the world became filled with less interesting takes on it.
She Loves You and I Want to Hold Your Hand are not even remotely folky. Dylan admired the eccentric chord changes. McGuinn admired the somewhat folky chords and harmonies in some of their other songs.
I don't think it's that hard to understand but Sean like your other posts you are too clouded to see anyone point of view other than yours. It's been explained to you that the Beatles energetic beat combined with a folksy influence that influenced the Byrds. This is clearly lacking on The Searchers compared to the Beatles.
Roger McGuinn has already stated it was songs like She Loves and I Want To Hold Your Hand that influenced him first. Those songs have folk chord changes. The Beatles so-called jangle sound that I have heard is their own invention. They even expanded it on later on Revolver by using the leslie guitar effect. Also on If I Needed Someone influenced by the Byrds they add a twist to it by making the guitar sounding like a tamboura.
I think if you follow my posts there all pretty logical and fact-based. I'm well aware that the Beatles combined folk, rock, and a jangling sound before the Byrds and that the Byrds were influenced by them. But that doesn't change the fact that the Byrds invented the official folk-rock style or that others added more folk to their rock before the Beatles (although usually without the jangling sound, which was not such a significant event anyway).
You just admitted that the Beatles combined folk, rock, and a jangling sound before the Byrds and that the Byrds were influenced by them. Their is no official folk rock style. The Byrds put folk rock and jangle pop on the map. Though it was the Beatles doing it before them that made this all possible. The key element is the Beatles was their new sound which rocked compared to the Searchers. The major element was their new upbeat sound along with their folk influence that the Searchers did not have. My opinions are facts coming from the Byrds, Dylan and Ritchie Unterberger. What also I find annoying you have to contstantly need to have the last word. So back to reading the Bible according to Pierro Scaruffi because you have not proved anyone wrong. McGuinn said it himself the Beatles invented folk rock. Also you may add the Beatles might have invented Alt Country back in 1964 or at least toyed with it.
This has nothing to do with Scaruffi. Even if the Beatles were the first to encorporate all the stylstic pinpoints of this genre before it existed literally, that still wouln't necessarily say anything. I mean, folk-rock is not so interesting in and of itself. It's about how it's done. If it's still just the same old pop music in new clothes, then calling it folk-rock only tells us where to find it in the music store rather than implying some kind of creative depth. Folk-rock (and rock in general didn't become much of a big deal artistically (to the extent that it meant something beyond a mere "classification") until the following year with the likes of Blonde on Blonde.
There is no doubt the Beatles influenced the Byrds. The Byrds just took one part of the Beatles music just like ELO and Can wanted go where the Beatles left of on I Am the Walrus. The Beatles had the jangle sound before the Byrds. The prototypcial folk rock sound could be heard on What'You're Doing. I thought it was Byrds until Revolver or Rank1 pointed that out it was the Beatles. So why is this troll annoying everyone when the facts have been presented to him
The Beatles influenced pratically everything in rock music at that time. Folk Rock is just one of many genres in rock music where the Beatles had a huge impact.
I am big fan of Dylan. I have to give some props to the Beatles. The Beatles were modal in a less bluesy way and more common to folk. Folk-Rock can be heard on Beatles for Sale especially on I'm A Loser. I always wondered if Dylan tuned into the Beatles at this point like the Byrds did earlier. I would not be suprised. The Byrds were more of the popular blueprint it was in the air already with the Searchers and the Animals "House of the Rising Sun" including the Beatles.
Here is All Music Guide on What You're Doing.
Starting with an unusual unaccompanied rolling
drum pattern. The drums are joined by a chiming 12-string guitar that sounds uncannily like the kind of sounds that became identified with the Byrds' Roger McGuinn, although "What You're Doing" was recorded in late 1964, about six months before the Byrds became famous with "Mr. Tambourine Man." The verses are unusual in how the group harmonizes — chants, almost — a single word at the beginning of lines, to be followed by conventional Paul McCartney singing to complete them. There are some very nice wistful harmonies supporting McCartney's voice in the latter sections of the verses, and at the end of the bridge the rest of the group comes to a stop as Paul elongates the word "me" for about seven syllables. The instrumental break has a sly raised-eyebrow quality, the guitar joined by almost jazzy, saloonish piano. To ride the song out, that unaccompanied rolling drum pattern is repeated, with a dramatic low descending bass run introducing the instrumental fadeout, where the guitar-piano combination takes the lead again
From the Horse's mouth (s)
But in my imagination this whole thing developed and I started mixing up old folk songs with the Beatles beat and taking them down to Greenwich Village and playing them for the people there.
Roger McGuinn
The big turning point, really, was the Beatles' influence on American folk music, and then Roger took it to the next step, and then along came the Lovin' Spoonful and everybody else.
Barry McGuire
and PS: Not only is the White Album Demos bootleg an AMAZING listen and an insight into the creative process that made The WHite Album, but the River Rhine Tapes boot does the same for Abbey Road and Let it Be.
The album "Meet the Beatles" was the most influential album to any folkie who converted to folk-rock. Apparently just about every musician who heard the album was stopped dead in their tracks and went out and bought an electric guitar. A quote from Roy Marinell, who went on to co-write "Excitable Boy" with Warren Zevon: "I heard 'I Want to Hold My Hand.' That was the turning point for me. When they hit that lick" -- he mimes the riff George Harrison plays during the verses -- "Oh my God, what is that? That was when it changed for everybody. Everybody started playing the Beatles." That includes the Mama and Papa's, The Lovin Spoonful, Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead though influenced by the Lovin Spoonful to go electric have cited the Beatles as putting in their heads to electric.
One early track called "I'll Be On My Way" though influenced somewhat by Buddy Holly is a very early jangly folk rock song. If your a Beatles fan you have heard the track
The Searchers "Needles and Pins" does not have 12 string guitar in it the first song the Searchers did with the 12 string guitar is "When You Walk in the Room". Which was released way after "A Hard Days Night". Two 6-string guitars are playing in unison on the intro - it sounds like a 12-string guitar because an engineer accidentally left the echo switch on but liked the result.
the bettles and folf-rock is great but becasue i am doing an assessment on the style folk-rock i would like to have alot of information because the other websites has got not much of information and i would like to answer these questions that some of the information is not on here so i would just like to give this website a tip of get more information and these are the questions that i would like to answer:
1.about folk-rock
2. when did the style first appear?
3.who was/ were the pioneeres of this style?
4.does this style still exist today or has it helped create/influence other styles?
5.What are the characteristics of this style?
And that is all that i would like to say if you could can you please send some information back about these questions:
1. teddyrox@live.com.au
2.jphil48@eq.edu.au
Thank you very much