Waaa??? OK, at a second view, I am not that surprised. Sometimes I think that there are only two possibilities for 2001: you love it or you hate it. There seems to be nothing in-between. Frankly I'm one of those from the first category.
Yeah, I think 2001 is a Love it or Hate it kind of movie. I don't know anyone who says they liked it or it was an okay movie, either they love it or they hate it.
I have to say that I have a hard time voting for "best" films. Who the hell am I to judge? I can only select my favorite, which in this case is probably A Clockwork Orange.
The only questions I have when someone says that they can't choose the best film, only their favourite is, If it's your favourite, why isn't it the best? and Why wouldn't the best be your favourite? If a movie is my favourite, it is the best as far as I'm concerned. I don't rely on lists like this to tell me what is the best. I'm sure that everyone on this site has judged a movie at sometime, everytime you say you like or don't like a movie, you judge it to some degree.
Would you look at what I've started. :) Anyway, I think I may have misstated my point. Of course, I can make a judgment as to which movie is the best, based on my own criteria. I do however strongly believe that to determine which movie is best would require, at the very least, having viewed all of the candidates. However, I can have a favorite having only seen one of the movies (or six as is the case here).
I regard best and favorite as having important semantic differences. I could probably make a list of criteria that I would use to determine "bestness," recognizing that there will always be intangibles. "Favoriteness," on the other hand, is almost all intangibles.
I don't think A Clockwork Orange displays Kubrick's best work. I could make a good case for Dr. Strangelove, 2001, or even Full Metal Jacket. However, I saw A Clockwork Orange for the first time at a particularly malleable stage in my adolescent development. It resonated with the increasingly twisted side of my personality, that I hardly knew existed up to that point. So it occupies a unique space in my psyche that cannot be supplanted by other works that even I would consider superior.
As for determining "bestness" from a subset of the candidates, that's closer to the position of the Academy, which attempts to determine superiority without considering (by which I mean viewing in this case) all of the candidates. Now of course the voting body can't see all of the movies produced in a year, but many members don't even watch all of the films nominated for best picture.
And as a final note, I certainly don't rely on other people's lists to make my judgments for me, but I do use them as a tool to determine about which films I would most like to make judgments.
I think my reply to your first post may have actually started all this and not your post. But, it's okay, a little friendly debate is always good.
"Of course, I can make a judgment as to which movie is the best, based on my own criteria."
That's all I ask, when I make a best movie poll. I thought that when I made these polls that people would look at the selections, choose a movie that they thought was the best out of the ones that they've seen and then forget about it shortly after and live happily ever after. I didn't think that the word best would scare people away from voting or make the choice more difficult.
"I do however strongly believe that to determine which movie is best would require, at the very least, having viewed all of the candidates."
I agree with that but I'm not trying to make a diffinitive list of the best movies ever made, I just want you to vote for what you think is the best movie out of the ones that you've seen.
"And as a final note, I certainly don't rely on other people's lists to make my judgments for me, but I do use them as a tool to determine about which films I would most like to make judgments."
If I said or implied that you did, I didn't mean to. I use those lists for the same thing.
Someone very wise once said , “Due to the fact that everyone has differing opinions, there's no way to determine the best or the greatest of anything, really. The best to me might not be the best to you. So all you can do is say what's the best for you.” I think you could learn from their wisdom. I certainly hope that every single “favourite” movie of yours isn't also the “best”/”greatest” movie. I would think that this would be boring.
No quirky personality choices unique to yourself. (Téa Leoni makes every film that she’s in just that much better.) No embarrassing fetishes or obsessions. (I’ve loved everything that Michelle Pfeiffer has ever done, starting with Grease 2 .) No wild-eyed pet theories of dubious origin. (Janeane Garofalo is America’s, nay, the World’s finest actress of this or any other era.) That seems sad to me. If a good movie is made, you will like it. If a bad movie is made, you won’t. You like the best and the best is what you like. And so say all of us.
But not me. One of my favourite things to do is to find some chocolates of middling quality, draw myself a scalding hot bath and then eat sweets while soaking in the tub and pretending to read a book until someone knocks on the door and asks me if I’ve “drowned in there.” This isn’t the best thing for everyone to spend their time doing and I’d be insane to claim otherwise. It’s not even the best thing for me to be doing. But, so help me, it’s a favourite thing of mine. I don’t care what say all of us.
I do hope that most people have different opinions. This doesn't mean that they have to differ (neither people nor opinions.) I think that there is (or should be) common ground upon which we can agree. We may agree to disagree, but hopefully all will understand the terms upon which the argument is met.
At the risk of walking into a quagmire I'd like to propose an outline of what is meant by certain labels of merit. Perhaps I should say "outline a proposal of what is meant..." Hopefully I shall become more clear. Or, "clearer."
I think that "favourite," "best" and "greatest" all lie upon a continuum. It is not a continuum of quality but rather a progression of changing criteria. The ranges of these criteria sometimes overlap. If you are completely conventional then the terms are indistinguishable. Your "favourite" movies are the "best" flics and they are the "greatest" films, as well. Try to relax. Reading about these philosophical distinctions needn't be like going to the dentist.
On second thought, let's go to the dentist. More specifically, we will go to a dental practice. This Orthodontic Co-op has three dentists, Mr. F, Ms. B and Ms. G. Mr. F is a young dental hygienist. Ms. B is a veteran family dentist and the senior partner in the practice; he determines everybody's assignments and makes sure that patient treatment is of the highest quality. Ms. G is an oral surgeon who has written a book describing innovative maxillofacial surgical techniques and is the one who did all of the work on David Letterman's teeth, which fixed his bite while keeping that famous gap-toothed smile in place.
When you go to get your teeth cleaned every six months you ask to have Mr. F do it. He's funny, sexy, charming and very quick and gentle when he tips the chair back and does it to you. He also cleans your teeth. (But seriously, I'll be here all week... now rinse and spit.) So he's your "favourite." You return to him time and again for comfort, entertainment, enjoyment and plaque-free teeth.
You have a friend. (I'm just speculating, all of my friends are theoretical and imaginary... and even they won't return my calls.) So this friend has just had his front teeth sheered off by a collision with the lip of a cast-iron pot. This friend asks you who he should see so that he doesn't look like an extra from Deliverance . (Definitely not a favourite movie and, although it might be a good movie, it is also not a great movie, either.) You (it's always about "You," isn't it?) “You” tell your friend to go to Dr. B., "she's the best." You admire, enjoy and trust her work and you feel that your friend will do the same. You'd like it if Ms. B. became your friend's favourite dentist. That would make you look knowledgeable, insightful and, dare I say “hip?”. But at a minimum you think that Dr. B. will treat your friend well and they won't end up with Freddie-Mercury-Mouth.
Then your friend and their new caps (plus a veneer) get into a bar fight and your friend takes a blow to the ethmoid process. They now need emergency treatment plus follow up surgery to reconstruct a caved-in face (and their wisdom teeth are all impacted, wouldn't you know?) Everyone recommends Ms. G.; she's the "greatest" oral and maxilla-facial surgeon to ever walk god’s green earth. She's condescending, arrogant, often quite unpleasant to deal with and sometimes quite nasty. She is, however, highly regarded in the oh-so-boring world of orthodontia and has inspired generations of failed medical students and over-achieving vets to become dentists and strive for orthodontic greatness.
Now what if I told you that Mr. F was Raiders of the Lost Ark ? That Ms. B is The Wizard of Oz ? And Ms. G is A Clockwork Orange ? Your teeth would be in a lot of trouble. British Royal Family trouble.
Nevertheless, I have a friend (let's all play along, shall we?) whose favourite movie is Raiders while they think that A Clockwork Orange is the "greatest" acheivement in film. I'm not sure if they think that The Wizard of Oz is the "best" movie ever but they have said that "everyone loves The Wizard of Oz" and this is my story so I say they do. So there it is. Kubrick made the "great"est, the Dread Spielberg made their "favourite" and everybody loves the Lollipop Guild. Words are important: "the"-greatest and "their"-favourite. "The" implies that there is one (there can be only one) by some kind of objective criteria that can be mutually agreed upon. That's the greatest. "Their" implies personal possesion or selection... nobody has to (or does) agree about favourites. But favourites are okay, everybody has one. Some people have two. I know I do.
It's "great" that really finks us over. If something is "great" everyone should be able to recognize it as such. They ought to be able to recognize it. If only they could only just see it. How can you not see it? What are you, blind? What's the matter with you? Look at me when I'm talking to you! And stop slouching.
What makes a movie your favorite? Memories of who you were with when you first saw it? Plenty of car chases and ’splosions with just enough breasts to make it all hang together (stop it)? Its sentimental view of early 80s hairstyles? Keira Knightley? (Or, as my definitively corporeal friend once said, “I’d be happy with Keira Twice-A-Week.”) It just doesn’t matter. You decide, no you really do, what is your favourite and why.
What makes a movie great? Notice that it’s “your favourite” but not “your greatest” movie. Great is tougher because most everyone mostly has to agree what constitutes “great.” Powerful, awe-inspiring, wide-ranging, far-reaching, primal, emotional, epic (why, it’s Jerry Bruckheimer: The Movie adapted from Jerry Bruckheimer: The Ride and soon to be Jerry Bruckheimer: The Cereal. Coming soon: Jerry B! the one-man off Broadway show.)
Where was I? …primal, emotional, epic and eternal and, erm... timeless! Are all the sorts of stuff that makes something “great.” He was “Alexander the Great” and not “Alexander the Favourite” nor “Alexander the Best.” Greatness should be visionary, inspirational and an example to all that follow. Hopefully we can agree that a great film (or book or band or board game) need not be likable. If you want likable get a dog. But this is where you get people refusing to call Birth of a Nation ”great.” Unfortunately, things can be great (and influential and everything else that comes with it) while being morally reprehensible, bombastic and upsetting in all kinds of ways. Not just considered great, they are great. A fine example of this is Wagner. Great, talented, influential, impressive and all that. You could not get me to sit through just one of his operas, let alone a whole cycle, even if the world’s supply of Natalie Portman was in danger. I hate him and his music. “Hate” might be too strong a word but it is also too short a word. “Visceral sense of loathing and contempt mixed with horror and revulsion” is too long.
But he is/was a great composer. ...shoot! I’m outta time. I was gonna nail down this blurry “best” distinction but it will have to be left up to your imagination. I’m sure that whatever you come up with will be just as incisive, funny and well reasoned as I like to pretend to be.
For some reason, that brought to mind "Mr. Knightley" from Austen's Emma. Now I'll never be able to read that without snickering -- he's on practically every page.
"Someone very wise once said , “Due to the fact that everyone has differing opinions, there's no way to determine the best or the greatest of anything, really. The best to me might not be the best to you. So all you can do is say what's the best for you.”
It's always nice when someone uses your words against you, I said in my post above that my favourites are the best as far as I'm concerned so I said what's the best for me. I don't need a list like NY Times 1000 greatest movies list to tell me what movies are great. Alot of people think Alien is a great movie, I don't.
Believe it or not, I read your entire post, even when I wasn't sure if we were still talking about movies or not. If I always went to Mr. F and a friend asked me who he should go see, I would say Mr. F. Why should I refer him to a dentist that I don't go to, even if she is supposed to be the best? How would I know that she's the best?
When you say "the" greatest, it implies that it is the absolute best and that no one can deny it's greatness but that's not true. I could deny the greatness of A Clockwork Orange if only I'd seen it. Why should I say a movie is the greatest just because it's on some critics greatest movies ever made list?
My last question is, If Wagner is so great, impressive and all that, Why can't you sit through his operas? If you can't sit through his operas, how do you know that he's great?
I think in 0dysseus's dental analogy, she meant that you had actually gone to Ms. G and Ms. B at some point. Indeed, her friend could not have claimed that A Clockwork Orange is the greatest film or that The Wizard of Oz is the best film without actually seeing them. I don't know if 0dysseus has ever seen a Wagner opera, but my guess is that she has heard enough to know she hates him.
BTW, in my Revenge of the Nerds / The Leopard example, I'm not saying that I think Revenge of the Nerds is not a good film because I've seen it on lists of bad films (actually, I don't think I have), and I'm not saying that I think The Leopard is a good film simply because I've seen it on lists of good films. I can enjoy a film that I KNOW is not all that good, and I can dislike a film that I KNOW is a good movie.
I see on your list of favorite singers that you seem to like Jewel a lot. Would you rather listen to an album by Jewel than a symphony by Beethoven? If so, do you think Jewel is a greater composer than Beethoven?
"I think in 0dysseus's dental analogy, she meant that you had actually gone to Ms. G and Ms. B at some point. Indeed, her friend could not have claimed that A Clockwork Orange is the greatest film or that The Wizard of Oz is the best film without actually seeing them. I don't know if 0dysseus has ever seen a Wagner opera, but my guess is that she has heard enough to know she hates him."
Thanks for clearing that up, I may have missed something when I was reading it.
"BTW, in my Revenge of the Nerds / The Leopard example, I'm not saying that I think Revenge of the Nerds is not a good film because I've seen it on lists of bad films (actually, I don't think I have), and I'm not saying that I think The Leopard is a good film simply because I've seen it on lists of good films. I can enjoy a film that I KNOW is not all that good, and I can dislike a film that I KNOW is a good movie"
I didn't mean to imply that you did. I actually like The Revenge of the Nerds. I have not seen The Leopard so I can't say if it's good or not. I just think that people should decide for themselves what is "best" instead of relying on those lists. I'm not saying that you should ignore those lists completely, I use them myself to check off movies that I've seen and to find new movies to see but you shouldn't think that Citizen Kane is the best movie ever made just because it's number 1 on all of those lists. I personally think that Citizen Kane is a great movie.
"I see on your list of favorite singers that you seem to like Jewel a lot. Would you rather listen to an album by Jewel than a symphony by Beethoven? If so, do you think Jewel is a greater composer than Beethoven?"
That wouldn't be a fair comparison. They don't compose the same kind of music, that would be like saying that Barry Bonds is a greater ball player then Michael Jordan. They both play ball but it's not the same kind of ball. Jewel and Beethoven both compose music but it's not the same music. I do like Beethoven but I listen to Jewel more.
Is it really an unfair comparison? Or is it just unfair because Beethoven is a world-renowned composer who has achieved legendary status, and Jewel was... well, she was pretty popular in the 90's. Come on, it's not a whole different sport. When you get right down to it, they're just different genres of music. It's like comparing Hitchcock, the master of suspense, and John Ford, the master of the Western. Jewel and Beethoven both make music. If I asked you to make a list of who you personally thought were the greatest musical composers in the history of the world, which one would be higher up on your list?
If I asked you who the better ball player was, Barry Bonds or Michael Jordan, who would you pick? Genre is just a word used to satisfy humanities desire to label everything. Of course I don't expect everyone, or anyone for that matter to agree with that. I may be opening a can of worms again but that happens.
I'd pick Michael Jordan as the better ball player AND as my more-favored ball player, based on different, yet inter-related criteria.
And by extension of your "apples and oranges" argument, there's no point comparing Kubrick movies because they're in different genres (for example, Full Metal Jacket and 2001) and therefore don't bear comparing.
But of course, we want to compare; we live to scrutinize, compare and judge. So let me say with conviction: Beethoven is the better composer, but Jewel sings better, plays guitar better (from what I know) and seems to be quite a bit hotter. But then again, these are different times...
"Of course, you're opening the can of worms here."
That's not unusual, I seem to do that alot.
And by extension of your "apples and oranges" argument, there's no point comparing Kubrick movies because they're in different genres (for example, Full Metal Jacket and 2001) and therefore don't bear comparing.
People do alot of things that there's no point to or seems to be pointless. Choosing one movie over another isn't that big of a deal, movie critics do it all the time. Or do we need some kind of degree to make choices like that? It seems that we need degrees for just about everything now days.
"So let me say with conviction: Beethoven is the better composer, but Jewel sings better, plays guitar better (from what I know) and seems to be quite a bit hotter."
You might be right. But really I just tried to make a friendly poll so that people could choose the best according to what ever criteria they use in determining such a thing. You can choose your favourite Kubrick film if you want or you can choose one that's not your favourite if you think it's the best or you can choose one that's neither your favourite nor the best just to throw the whole thing off if you want, it's a private poll, no one would know unless you told them..
Oh I know. I really don't have any problem with this poll, I just enjoy a good debate, and the best vs. favorite one is a classic. By the way, my last post was intended jokingly, in case that didn't come across.
Oh man... you're opening up a huge can of worms now, Oedipus. I've always been a proponent of separating best and favorite. I can admit that I can sometimes get a lot of enjoyment out of a movie that isn't really all that good, and I can personally not appreciate a movie that is in reality a good movie.
I submit for your approval Revenge of the Nerds and The Leopard. Revenge of the Nerds is a pretty stupid, formulaic underdog movie with no depth and cookie-cutter charactes. I realize this, and yet, I must say that I enjoyed watching it. The Leopard, on the other hand, is an established classic with beautiful cinematography and a wonderful performance by Burt Lancaster, but it bored me to death.
I am certainly not going to sit here and tell you that Revenge of the Nerds is a better movie than The Leopard. But if you ask me which one I liked better, I'd say Revenge of the Nerds.
Yes, I know, I seem to open up a can of worms with everything I say. Maybe it's that I don't like to be told what to think and I feel that these critics lists of greatest movies ever made are designed for that pupose to make us think that those are the greates movies ever made. You may agree with some of the choices on that list but do you really have to say that every movie on the 1000 greatest movies ever made list are great? Like I said before, if it's my favourite, it is the best as far as I'm concerned, I don't expect everyone else to agree with me and I don't expect to tell everyone else that it should be the best for them.
it's nearly impossible for me to choose between paths of glory, eyes wide shut, and Strangelove.
and now the shining had to be so fing great
Oops, Lolita went lost.
I can't believe I left Lolita off but I just added it.
And I can't believe that, for the moment, there is a tie between Full Metal Jacket and 2001.
I hate 2001, it's an awful movie. 2010, isn't great but it's better than 2001.
Waaa??? OK, at a second view, I am not that surprised. Sometimes I think that there are only two possibilities for 2001: you love it or you hate it. There seems to be nothing in-between. Frankly I'm one of those from the first category.
Yeah, I think 2001 is a Love it or Hate it kind of movie. I don't know anyone who says they liked it or it was an okay movie, either they love it or they hate it.
I have to say that I have a hard time voting for "best" films. Who the hell am I to judge? I can only select my favorite, which in this case is probably A Clockwork Orange.
The only questions I have when someone says that they can't choose the best film, only their favourite is, If it's your favourite, why isn't it the best? and Why wouldn't the best be your favourite? If a movie is my favourite, it is the best as far as I'm concerned. I don't rely on lists like this to tell me what is the best. I'm sure that everyone on this site has judged a movie at sometime, everytime you say you like or don't like a movie, you judge it to some degree.
Would you look at what I've started. :) Anyway, I think I may have misstated my point. Of course, I can make a judgment as to which movie is the best, based on my own criteria. I do however strongly believe that to determine which movie is best would require, at the very least, having viewed all of the candidates. However, I can have a favorite having only seen one of the movies (or six as is the case here).
I regard best and favorite as having important semantic differences. I could probably make a list of criteria that I would use to determine "bestness," recognizing that there will always be intangibles. "Favoriteness," on the other hand, is almost all intangibles.
I don't think A Clockwork Orange displays Kubrick's best work. I could make a good case for Dr. Strangelove, 2001, or even Full Metal Jacket. However, I saw A Clockwork Orange for the first time at a particularly malleable stage in my adolescent development. It resonated with the increasingly twisted side of my personality, that I hardly knew existed up to that point. So it occupies a unique space in my psyche that cannot be supplanted by other works that even I would consider superior.
As for determining "bestness" from a subset of the candidates, that's closer to the position of the Academy, which attempts to determine superiority without considering (by which I mean viewing in this case) all of the candidates. Now of course the voting body can't see all of the movies produced in a year, but many members don't even watch all of the films nominated for best picture.
And as a final note, I certainly don't rely on other people's lists to make my judgments for me, but I do use them as a tool to determine about which films I would most like to make judgments.
I think my reply to your first post may have actually started all this and not your post. But, it's okay, a little friendly debate is always good.
"Of course, I can make a judgment as to which movie is the best, based on my own criteria."
That's all I ask, when I make a best movie poll. I thought that when I made these polls that people would look at the selections, choose a movie that they thought was the best out of the ones that they've seen and then forget about it shortly after and live happily ever after. I didn't think that the word best would scare people away from voting or make the choice more difficult.
"I do however strongly believe that to determine which movie is best would require, at the very least, having viewed all of the candidates."
I agree with that but I'm not trying to make a diffinitive list of the best movies ever made, I just want you to vote for what you think is the best movie out of the ones that you've seen.
"And as a final note, I certainly don't rely on other people's lists to make my judgments for me, but I do use them as a tool to determine about which films I would most like to make judgments."
If I said or implied that you did, I didn't mean to. I use those lists for the same thing.
Someone very wise once said , “Due to the fact that everyone has differing opinions, there's no way to determine the best or the greatest of anything, really. The best to me might not be the best to you. So all you can do is say what's the best for you.” I think you could learn from their wisdom. I certainly hope that every single “favourite” movie of yours isn't also the “best”/”greatest” movie. I would think that this would be boring.
No quirky personality choices unique to yourself. (Téa Leoni makes every film that she’s in just that much better.) No embarrassing fetishes or obsessions. (I’ve loved everything that Michelle Pfeiffer has ever done, starting with Grease 2 .) No wild-eyed pet theories of dubious origin. (Janeane Garofalo is America’s, nay, the World’s finest actress of this or any other era.) That seems sad to me. If a good movie is made, you will like it. If a bad movie is made, you won’t. You like the best and the best is what you like. And so say all of us.
But not me. One of my favourite things to do is to find some chocolates of middling quality, draw myself a scalding hot bath and then eat sweets while soaking in the tub and pretending to read a book until someone knocks on the door and asks me if I’ve “drowned in there.” This isn’t the best thing for everyone to spend their time doing and I’d be insane to claim otherwise. It’s not even the best thing for me to be doing. But, so help me, it’s a favourite thing of mine. I don’t care what say all of us.
I do hope that most people have different opinions. This doesn't mean that they have to differ (neither people nor opinions.) I think that there is (or should be) common ground upon which we can agree. We may agree to disagree, but hopefully all will understand the terms upon which the argument is met.
At the risk of walking into a quagmire I'd like to propose an outline of what is meant by certain labels of merit. Perhaps I should say "outline a proposal of what is meant..." Hopefully I shall become more clear. Or, "clearer."
I think that "favourite," "best" and "greatest" all lie upon a continuum. It is not a continuum of quality but rather a progression of changing criteria. The ranges of these criteria sometimes overlap. If you are completely conventional then the terms are indistinguishable. Your "favourite" movies are the "best" flics and they are the "greatest" films, as well. Try to relax. Reading about these philosophical distinctions needn't be like going to the dentist.
On second thought, let's go to the dentist. More specifically, we will go to a dental practice. This Orthodontic Co-op has three dentists, Mr. F, Ms. B and Ms. G. Mr. F is a young dental hygienist. Ms. B is a veteran family dentist and the senior partner in the practice; he determines everybody's assignments and makes sure that patient treatment is of the highest quality. Ms. G is an oral surgeon who has written a book describing innovative maxillofacial surgical techniques and is the one who did all of the work on David Letterman's teeth, which fixed his bite while keeping that famous gap-toothed smile in place.
When you go to get your teeth cleaned every six months you ask to have Mr. F do it. He's funny, sexy, charming and very quick and gentle when he tips the chair back and does it to you. He also cleans your teeth. (But seriously, I'll be here all week... now rinse and spit.) So he's your "favourite." You return to him time and again for comfort, entertainment, enjoyment and plaque-free teeth.
You have a friend. (I'm just speculating, all of my friends are theoretical and imaginary... and even they won't return my calls.) So this friend has just had his front teeth sheered off by a collision with the lip of a cast-iron pot. This friend asks you who he should see so that he doesn't look like an extra from Deliverance . (Definitely not a favourite movie and, although it might be a good movie, it is also not a great movie, either.) You (it's always about "You," isn't it?) “You” tell your friend to go to Dr. B., "she's the best." You admire, enjoy and trust her work and you feel that your friend will do the same. You'd like it if Ms. B. became your friend's favourite dentist. That would make you look knowledgeable, insightful and, dare I say “hip?”. But at a minimum you think that Dr. B. will treat your friend well and they won't end up with Freddie-Mercury-Mouth.
Then your friend and their new caps (plus a veneer) get into a bar fight and your friend takes a blow to the ethmoid process. They now need emergency treatment plus follow up surgery to reconstruct a caved-in face (and their wisdom teeth are all impacted, wouldn't you know?) Everyone recommends Ms. G.; she's the "greatest" oral and maxilla-facial surgeon to ever walk god’s green earth. She's condescending, arrogant, often quite unpleasant to deal with and sometimes quite nasty. She is, however, highly regarded in the oh-so-boring world of orthodontia and has inspired generations of failed medical students and over-achieving vets to become dentists and strive for orthodontic greatness.
Now what if I told you that Mr. F was Raiders of the Lost Ark ? That Ms. B is The Wizard of Oz ? And Ms. G is A Clockwork Orange ? Your teeth would be in a lot of trouble. British Royal Family trouble.
Nevertheless, I have a friend (let's all play along, shall we?) whose favourite movie is Raiders while they think that A Clockwork Orange is the "greatest" acheivement in film. I'm not sure if they think that The Wizard of Oz is the "best" movie ever but they have said that "everyone loves The Wizard of Oz" and this is my story so I say they do. So there it is. Kubrick made the "great"est, the Dread Spielberg made their "favourite" and everybody loves the Lollipop Guild. Words are important: "the"-greatest and "their"-favourite. "The" implies that there is one (there can be only one) by some kind of objective criteria that can be mutually agreed upon. That's the greatest. "Their" implies personal possesion or selection... nobody has to (or does) agree about favourites. But favourites are okay, everybody has one. Some people have two. I know I do.
It's "great" that really finks us over. If something is "great" everyone should be able to recognize it as such. They ought to be able to recognize it. If only they could only just see it. How can you not see it? What are you, blind? What's the matter with you? Look at me when I'm talking to you! And stop slouching.
What makes a movie your favorite? Memories of who you were with when you first saw it? Plenty of car chases and ’splosions with just enough breasts to make it all hang together (stop it)? Its sentimental view of early 80s hairstyles? Keira Knightley? (Or, as my definitively corporeal friend once said, “I’d be happy with Keira Twice-A-Week.”) It just doesn’t matter. You decide, no you really do, what is your favourite and why.
What makes a movie great? Notice that it’s “your favourite” but not “your greatest” movie. Great is tougher because most everyone mostly has to agree what constitutes “great.” Powerful, awe-inspiring, wide-ranging, far-reaching, primal, emotional, epic (why, it’s Jerry Bruckheimer: The Movie adapted from Jerry Bruckheimer: The Ride and soon to be Jerry Bruckheimer: The Cereal. Coming soon: Jerry B! the one-man off Broadway show.)
Where was I? …primal, emotional, epic and eternal and, erm... timeless! Are all the sorts of stuff that makes something “great.” He was “Alexander the Great” and not “Alexander the Favourite” nor “Alexander the Best.” Greatness should be visionary, inspirational and an example to all that follow. Hopefully we can agree that a great film (or book or band or board game) need not be likable. If you want likable get a dog. But this is where you get people refusing to call Birth of a Nation ”great.” Unfortunately, things can be great (and influential and everything else that comes with it) while being morally reprehensible, bombastic and upsetting in all kinds of ways. Not just considered great, they are great. A fine example of this is Wagner. Great, talented, influential, impressive and all that. You could not get me to sit through just one of his operas, let alone a whole cycle, even if the world’s supply of Natalie Portman was in danger. I hate him and his music. “Hate” might be too strong a word but it is also too short a word. “Visceral sense of loathing and contempt mixed with horror and revulsion” is too long.
But he is/was a great composer. ...shoot! I’m outta time. I was gonna nail down this blurry “best” distinction but it will have to be left up to your imagination. I’m sure that whatever you come up with will be just as incisive, funny and well reasoned as I like to pretend to be.
Oh great, now I'll never be able to hear the name Keira Knightly with a straight face again.
For some reason, that brought to mind "Mr. Knightley" from Austen's Emma. Now I'll never be able to read that without snickering -- he's on practically every page.
I can't believe I never caught that before.
"Someone very wise once said , “Due to the fact that everyone has differing opinions, there's no way to determine the best or the greatest of anything, really. The best to me might not be the best to you. So all you can do is say what's the best for you.”
It's always nice when someone uses your words against you, I said in my post above that my favourites are the best as far as I'm concerned so I said what's the best for me. I don't need a list like NY Times 1000 greatest movies list to tell me what movies are great. Alot of people think Alien is a great movie, I don't.
Believe it or not, I read your entire post, even when I wasn't sure if we were still talking about movies or not. If I always went to Mr. F and a friend asked me who he should go see, I would say Mr. F. Why should I refer him to a dentist that I don't go to, even if she is supposed to be the best? How would I know that she's the best?
When you say "the" greatest, it implies that it is the absolute best and that no one can deny it's greatness but that's not true. I could deny the greatness of A Clockwork Orange if only I'd seen it. Why should I say a movie is the greatest just because it's on some critics greatest movies ever made list?
My last question is, If Wagner is so great, impressive and all that, Why can't you sit through his operas? If you can't sit through his operas, how do you know that he's great?
I think in 0dysseus's dental analogy, she meant that you had actually gone to Ms. G and Ms. B at some point. Indeed, her friend could not have claimed that A Clockwork Orange is the greatest film or that The Wizard of Oz is the best film without actually seeing them. I don't know if 0dysseus has ever seen a Wagner opera, but my guess is that she has heard enough to know she hates him.
BTW, in my Revenge of the Nerds / The Leopard example, I'm not saying that I think Revenge of the Nerds is not a good film because I've seen it on lists of bad films (actually, I don't think I have), and I'm not saying that I think The Leopard is a good film simply because I've seen it on lists of good films. I can enjoy a film that I KNOW is not all that good, and I can dislike a film that I KNOW is a good movie.
I see on your list of favorite singers that you seem to like Jewel a lot. Would you rather listen to an album by Jewel than a symphony by Beethoven? If so, do you think Jewel is a greater composer than Beethoven?
"I think in 0dysseus's dental analogy, she meant that you had actually gone to Ms. G and Ms. B at some point. Indeed, her friend could not have claimed that A Clockwork Orange is the greatest film or that The Wizard of Oz is the best film without actually seeing them. I don't know if 0dysseus has ever seen a Wagner opera, but my guess is that she has heard enough to know she hates him."
Thanks for clearing that up, I may have missed something when I was reading it.
"BTW, in my Revenge of the Nerds / The Leopard example, I'm not saying that I think Revenge of the Nerds is not a good film because I've seen it on lists of bad films (actually, I don't think I have), and I'm not saying that I think The Leopard is a good film simply because I've seen it on lists of good films. I can enjoy a film that I KNOW is not all that good, and I can dislike a film that I KNOW is a good movie"
I didn't mean to imply that you did. I actually like The Revenge of the Nerds. I have not seen The Leopard so I can't say if it's good or not. I just think that people should decide for themselves what is "best" instead of relying on those lists. I'm not saying that you should ignore those lists completely, I use them myself to check off movies that I've seen and to find new movies to see but you shouldn't think that Citizen Kane is the best movie ever made just because it's number 1 on all of those lists. I personally think that Citizen Kane is a great movie.
"I see on your list of favorite singers that you seem to like Jewel a lot. Would you rather listen to an album by Jewel than a symphony by Beethoven? If so, do you think Jewel is a greater composer than Beethoven?"
That wouldn't be a fair comparison. They don't compose the same kind of music, that would be like saying that Barry Bonds is a greater ball player then Michael Jordan. They both play ball but it's not the same kind of ball. Jewel and Beethoven both compose music but it's not the same music. I do like Beethoven but I listen to Jewel more.
Is it really an unfair comparison? Or is it just unfair because Beethoven is a world-renowned composer who has achieved legendary status, and Jewel was... well, she was pretty popular in the 90's. Come on, it's not a whole different sport. When you get right down to it, they're just different genres of music. It's like comparing Hitchcock, the master of suspense, and John Ford, the master of the Western. Jewel and Beethoven both make music. If I asked you to make a list of who you personally thought were the greatest musical composers in the history of the world, which one would be higher up on your list?
"Is it really an unfair comparison?"
Is it not?
If I asked you who the better ball player was, Barry Bonds or Michael Jordan, who would you pick? Genre is just a word used to satisfy humanities desire to label everything. Of course I don't expect everyone, or anyone for that matter to agree with that. I may be opening a can of worms again but that happens.
Of course, you're opening the can of worms here.
I'd pick Michael Jordan as the better ball player AND as my more-favored ball player, based on different, yet inter-related criteria.
And by extension of your "apples and oranges" argument, there's no point comparing Kubrick movies because they're in different genres (for example, Full Metal Jacket and 2001) and therefore don't bear comparing.
But of course, we want to compare; we live to scrutinize, compare and judge. So let me say with conviction: Beethoven is the better composer, but Jewel sings better, plays guitar better (from what I know) and seems to be quite a bit hotter. But then again, these are different times...
"Of course, you're opening the can of worms here."
That's not unusual, I seem to do that alot.
And by extension of your "apples and oranges" argument, there's no point comparing Kubrick movies because they're in different genres (for example, Full Metal Jacket and 2001) and therefore don't bear comparing.
People do alot of things that there's no point to or seems to be pointless. Choosing one movie over another isn't that big of a deal, movie critics do it all the time. Or do we need some kind of degree to make choices like that? It seems that we need degrees for just about everything now days.
"So let me say with conviction: Beethoven is the better composer, but Jewel sings better, plays guitar better (from what I know) and seems to be quite a bit hotter."
I couldn't have said that better myself.
Yeah, well... you just don't want to answer because you know I'm right.
-- AJDaMasterofReversePsychology
You might be right. But really I just tried to make a friendly poll so that people could choose the best according to what ever criteria they use in determining such a thing. You can choose your favourite Kubrick film if you want or you can choose one that's not your favourite if you think it's the best or you can choose one that's neither your favourite nor the best just to throw the whole thing off if you want, it's a private poll, no one would know unless you told them..
Oh I know. I really don't have any problem with this poll, I just enjoy a good debate, and the best vs. favorite one is a classic. By the way, my last post was intended jokingly, in case that didn't come across.
It was taken jokingly, your last post that is. Yeah, the "best" vs. "favourite" debate is a classic and almost unavoidable anytime you discuss movies.
Oh man... you're opening up a huge can of worms now, Oedipus. I've always been a proponent of separating best and favorite. I can admit that I can sometimes get a lot of enjoyment out of a movie that isn't really all that good, and I can personally not appreciate a movie that is in reality a good movie.
I submit for your approval Revenge of the Nerds and The Leopard. Revenge of the Nerds is a pretty stupid, formulaic underdog movie with no depth and cookie-cutter charactes. I realize this, and yet, I must say that I enjoyed watching it. The Leopard, on the other hand, is an established classic with beautiful cinematography and a wonderful performance by Burt Lancaster, but it bored me to death.
I am certainly not going to sit here and tell you that Revenge of the Nerds is a better movie than The Leopard. But if you ask me which one I liked better, I'd say Revenge of the Nerds.
Yes, I know, I seem to open up a can of worms with everything I say. Maybe it's that I don't like to be told what to think and I feel that these critics lists of greatest movies ever made are designed for that pupose to make us think that those are the greates movies ever made. You may agree with some of the choices on that list but do you really have to say that every movie on the 1000 greatest movies ever made list are great? Like I said before, if it's my favourite, it is the best as far as I'm concerned, I don't expect everyone else to agree with me and I don't expect to tell everyone else that it should be the best for them.
I voted for Paths of Glory.