Games I'd Like To Acquire

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  • For Others
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  • Video Games
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  • Nintendo Gameboy Advance
  • Advance Wars [93%]
  • Super Mario World: Mario Advance 2 [93%]
  • Metroid Fusion [92%] $19.88
  • Super Mario Brothers 3: Super Mario Advance 4 [92%] $29.88
  • Mario Kart Advance [92%] $28.95
  • Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising [91%]
  • Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past [91%] $19.95
  • Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 [90%]
  • Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap [90%] $28.95
  • Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow [90%]
  • Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga [90%] $28.95
  • WarioWare: Twisted! [90%] $28.95
  • Metroid: Zero Mission [89%] $28.95
  • Fire Emblem [89%] $29.88
  • Golden Sun [89%]
  • Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 [89%]
  • WarioWare Inc.: Mega Microgame$ [89%] $29.99
  • Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 [89%]
  • Castlevania: Circle of the Moon [89%]
  • Pokemon Ruby [89%] $31.89
  • Golden Sun: The Lost Age [89%]
  • Disney's The Lion King 1 ½ [88%]
  • Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 [88%]
  • Konami Collector's Series: Arcade Advanced [88%] $13.95
  • Tony Hawk's Underground (GBA) [87%] $4.99 + Shipping at BestBuy.com
  • Mortal Kombat: Tournament Edition [87%]
  • Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones [87%] $28.95
  • F-Zero: Maximum Velocity [87%]
  • Pokemon Sapphire [87%] $34.88
  • Final Fantasy Tactics Advance [87%] $34.88
  • Rescue Heroes: Billy Blazes [86%]
  • Rayman Advance [86%]
  • Astro Boy: Omega Factor [86%] $20.95
  • Puyo Pop [85%]
  • Warioland 4 [85%]
  • Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros. [85%] $9.95
  • Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis [85%]
  • Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance [85%]
  • Prince of Persia: Sands of Time [76%]
  •  
  • Nintendo Gamecube
  • Resident Evil 4 [96%] $37.95
  • Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker [95%] $19.88
  • Metroid Prime [95%] $19.88
  • Prince of Persia: Sands of Time [92%] ?
  • Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4 [92%] $9.99
  • Metroid Prime 2: Echoes [91%] $46.95
  • Soul Calibur II [91%] $19.88
  • SSX 3 [91%] $19.88
  • Super Monkey Ball [91%] $19.99
  • Super Smash Bros. Melee [91%] $27.95
  • Viewtiful Joe [91%] $19.88
  • Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem [90%] $49.99
  • F-Zero GX [90%] $19.88
  • NCAA Football 2004 [90%] $46.95
  • Super Mario Sunshine [90%] $19.88
  • TimeSplitters 2 [90%] $14.82
  • Madden NFL 2004 [89%] $29.95
  • Madden NFL 2005 [89%] $27.95
  • Mario Kart: Double Dash!! [89%] $45.95
  • Pikmin 2 [89%] $39.88
  • Resident Evil [89%] $19.99
  • Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2004 [89%] $14.95
  • Fight Night Round 2 [88%] $49.99
  • Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II [88%] $14.88
  • Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 [88%] $12.99
  • Burnout 2: Point of Impact [87%] ?
  • Def Jam Fight For NY [87%] $19.88
  • Nascar 2005: Chase For The Cup [87%] $23.96
  • NCAA Football 2005 [87%] $25.95
  • Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door [87%] $29.99
  • Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2005 [87%] $23.96
  • Tony Hawk's Underground [87%] $19.95
  • Animal Crossing [86%] $19.95
  • Skies of Arcadia: Legends [86%] ?
  • Tony Hawk's Underground 2 [86%] $29.99
  • Tales of Symphonia [85%]
  • Viewtiful Joe 2 [85%]
  • X-Men Legends [85%] $19.88
  • Pikmin [84%] ?
  • Spider-Man 2 [83%] $19.88
  • Wave Race: Blue Storm [82%] $49.99
  • Alien Hominid [81%] $19.99
  • Harry Potter: Quidditch World Cup [71%]
Author Comments: 

Title [GameTab Rating]

GTA:SA... mwah! Magnifique!

(And I haven't even made it to the second city yet.)

Well if you've read any of my other video game posts you'd know I'm a strong believer in Resident Evil 4. I'd highly recommend that as your next game purchase. Capcom's also been promoting Res Evil 4 for the Playstation 2, and generally we're all curious as to if there will be anything new.

And if you're into RTS for the PC I recommend Rise of Nations: Gold Edition, its what Empire Earth II should have been (only it came out a year earlier).

Though the technology and vocabulary of video games has increased faster than any other popular art/entertainment media I can think of, video games still aren't very artistic, as far as I can tell. Most of their innovations are technical. Can you (or anyone else) think of video games that have been highly artistic? Maybe I'm just turning a blind eye to the characteristics of video game art that aren't related the characteristics of art in painting, music, or film.

I'm not necessarily very art savvy but in reading your question I was trying to think of aspects of videogaming which could be qualified as art. The three aspects I thought of were the gameplay, the sound and the visuals. Can you think of any other aspects which might broach the artistic?

Multi-threaded narrative, character creation and in-game evolution, architecture/landscaping, aestheticism, mythology... there's probably much more.

Narrative (and dialogue, etc.), if present. I think the real issue is that gameplay, graphics, sound, and narrative in video games have typically existed for functionality, not for any artistic goal in the way that works of Dali, Stravinsky, or Welles are artistic.

I think that narrative is always present: there's always a premise. From "Let's pretend to play tennis!", "Don't let the asteroids smash into you" and "Let's rescue a princess from an ape throwing barrels because we're Italian-American plumbers" to "Do you wanna play some football!", "Let's build a community!" and "I've gotta fight demons on Phobos". Then there's the games based on movies (The Godfather, coming to a PlayStation near you) and vice versa (and I do mean "vice"... perhaps "crime".)

Dialogue can range from simple beeps to monsters that turn blue and run away when you eat a power pill to listening to WCTA on your car radio. I think an argument could be made that game dialogue is more creative than movie dialogue. It's almost certainly more problematic. Game dialogue has to "react" and "interact" with the gamer.

I'm not going to claim that Centipede stomps all over My Dinner with André but gameplay is now designed for forty plus hours while Citizen Kane clocks in at two hours... even The Lord of the Rings trilogy maxes out at twelve hours (plus some DVD extras) and Casablanca is the only movie I can think of that people are willing to replay endlessly. How long can people look at melting clocks or listen to music about a puppet?.. although Der Ring des Nibelungen does seem to go on forever.

If you're someone who considers movies to be high art because they integrate writing, music, visual art, etc then I'd guess you would at least be kinda impressed by the structure, cinematography, set design, foley work etc. of video games. Towards that end let me point out some of the smaller/funnier self-contained episodes of Red vs. Blue.
Warning: Not very small but very funny... I think.
Early episode: DivX 8MB QT 20MB
Episode from the Current Season Three: DivX 17MB WMP 21MB QT 20MB

Of course video games contain narrative, dialogue, music, cinematography, and set design. It's just that usually they're not very good - only functional and almost never very impressive... except when compared against the crappy narrative, dialogue, music, cinematography, and set design of other video games. To what video game would a "high artist" of another field exclaim, "Now that is art!"?

whurrgff! Just thinking about this is getting me tongue-tied, tangled up and tingly. I'm going to have to sit down and collect my thought. (Yes, "thought" singular.) I want to be able to write this up in a calm, reasoned, thoughtful way. Or at least coherent and comprehensible... we'll see just how long that takes. I have no problem spewing. It's respewing, proofspewing and editing that I find impossible.

In the interest of full and fair disclosure I must say that the last video game I played was... I'm gonna to say Sonic. Let's not pry any further into that matter. So I'm going to ask for your (that means everyone) assistance. You (that means lukeprog) were very useful (indispensable) in helping me to work through my the Dread Spielberg thesis... along with many others (that means jim, AJDaGreat and... I'm sorry if I'm forgetting.) Before I forget anything/one else let me say "Thank you everyone." You know, I might hafta say Frogger.

Gosh! I hope all that inspires me to write more than the following microburst...

I'm not even going to try to address the issues of "What is art?" that surround comics, games, computer programs and popular culture for now. I still think that there are video games that can and should be judged upon artistic merits. A couple quick examples... The mythos surrounding Fire Emblem. The creation of an entire cohesive world in Grand Theft Auto (San Andreas.) And the cinematic vision of Advent Rising. I think that they all show quite a bit of creative vision... they certainly look far more interesting to me than the vast majority of movie releases.

But I need to think about this more. There are so many facets to this that I don't barely can write good about that no more. The affect that video games have had on cinematography (the orc attack at Amon Hen in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring ), the way that television sports are filmed (the camera on wires over the middle of the field in American football which gives a quarterback's view of the action) and the explosion (ha!) of special effects driven stories will all have to wait. Let me just say something that I learned from Chi Kong Lui which I wish I had thought of and I think I agree with: "Video games currently seem to be at the Birth Of A Nation stage." I think that Grand Theft Auto might be a direct parallel...

I think I'll leave it at that. I can't believe that I'm defending video games.

I was going to write earlier that video games seemed 40 years behind film, but that doesn't make sense for elements like narrative, dialogue, special effects, etc. I'm not sure that video games influenced Peter Jackson more than earlier cinematic battle scenes. And I remain convinced that the rule (which, always, has exceptions) is that video games are playing catchup with movies. Too vigorously, I think; video games are a different medium and I tire quickly of the endless cinematics of Solid Snake. But I'm also bored by the highly sylized but generally tiresome dialogue of, say, Max Payne or GTA: San Andreas. I'm also usually unimpressed with video games' narrative (but then, I'm usually unimpressed with movie narratives). Metal Gear Solid had an unusually solid narrative, though. Probably because it was all narrative and no gameplay. As for set design and cinematics, it's all pretty functional (Mario, Madden) or visceral (Manhunt, Burnout).

I can't think of any video games that don't place the highest priority of being fun (for somebody). That's natural, just as it's natural to make music or movies or paintings that are fun. But shouldn't there be a few video games by now that could be the equivalents of Bunuel's Un chien andalou, Bergman's Persona, Reggio's Koyaanisqatsi, Stockhausen's Song of the Children, Coleman's Free Jazz, Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica, Klimt's The Virgin, Klee's Ad Marginen, or Chagall's I and the Village?

A few highlights (which still aren't quite up to snuff) that are now coming to mind are Homeworld's ambient soundtrack, the "journeys through madness" in Max Payne (I think), and the art design of the Myst series.

C'mon, Luke, do you think anyone would buy a video game that was anything like Persona? I don't think you can impose artistic aesthetic from other art forms onto video games, because the game makers are just going for enjoyment and comprehensibility. Video games are formulaic by nature - every, for example, 1st-person shooter shares a lot of the same programming. In fact, I bet there are a few Persona-esque games made in Japan, but you've never heard of them because they sold horribly and never made it to America.

Yes, it's a huge risk of money to make daring, original, artistic games, especially since games are as expensive to make as films, now. Maybe there aren't a million Americans who will buy an artistic video game, but there aren't a millionAmericans who will watch the latest Kiarostami effort, either.

I know I would love to play a first-person non-shooter (the player uses magic and perception- and time-altering drugs instead of guns) through wacky, physics-defying expressionist architecture with (nearly) inexplicable identity shifts that affect gameplay, with Tarantino dialogue and an original soundtrack by Michael Gordon

Much like the directors of subsidized "foreign" films, Arnt Jensen has received a grant from the Danish government for a new video game. He is now looking for a programmer. Check out the preview for Limbo (yikes!.. that saw.)

Yes, that one does look... well, atmospheric anyway, doesn't it?

Speaking of "subsidized 'foreign' films," the French cultural minister wants his government to do for video games what it has done for cinema. This might be more about economic protectionism than it is about art but it could go a long way towards alleviating the "huge risk of money to make daring, original, artistic games."

There are some issues with the EU while others self-servedly worry that the government will do for video games what it has done for cinema. The NYTimes has a few of the details:

"Call me the minister of video games if you want - I am proud of this," the minister, Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, said in an interview last month. "People have looked down on video games for far too long, overlooking their great creativity and cultural value."

[snip]

"Video games are not a mere commercial product," he insisted. "They are a form of artistic expression involving creation from script writers, designers and directors."

An increase in game players and game sales relative to other cultural goods underscores the need for video games to be recognized as a part of the broader culture, he said.

[snip]

"Similar to what happened with the French film industry, these plans will prove bad for the industry and for consumers," said Gerhard Florin, the executive vice president in Switzerland for international publishing at Electronic Arts, which would not directly benefit from French government support. "French cinema’s financial assistance supports only a few well-connected producers who no longer need to pay attention to consumers."

[snip]

"Video game characters will not be required to wear a beret and carry a liter of wine under their arm," Mr. Donnedieu de Vabres said.Insert your own "Frogger" joke here.

How very interesting!

Whoops! I didn't notice AJDaGreat's post above (stupid unrefreshing browser.) Let me just say: Erm. Yeah. What he said.
Let me just say that I think I agree with everything you've said. (I certainly don't disagree with what you've said but I'm still turning things over in my mind.)

If I'm remembering it accurately the shot in LotR:FotR that made me flash on "video game" was a wide shot on the lead orc(s) as more and more of them begin to flow through the trees. The camera cranes up, out and over the tree canopy to look directly down upon even more and more orcs. Partially obscured by the trees it reminded me of a game graphic showing the relative position of characters on a landscape. It sorta felt like looking down on a chessboard where the nine white pieces are in position and all of these black Othello pieces are flooding the area. (If I could work whist and mumblety-peg into this metaphor I think I would.)

Actually, Peter Jackson's work first came to mind because of the CG orcs/soldiers in TTT and RotK . They were programmed to individually move and fight (and even "see" and "hear".) I learned this when I read that WETA had to reprogram the characters because they were too concerned with their own survival. Many of them would end up running away.

I know that video games are best understood through the frame of movies but I can't wrap my mind around that (yet?) Should cinema be the matrix (the first one) for vide games? I don't think that movies are playing catchup with Klimt, Klee or Koyaanisqatsi (I know it's a movie but it's just so fun to try and say those names three times fast.) I don't even think that television is trying to keep up with movies (or vice versa) in spite of all of the cross-pollination. Besides, If you're usually unimpressed with movie narratives why should you hold video games to a higher standard?

I must say that I do not think that video games are are "40 years behind film." Although The Sound of Music would make an awesome shooter game.

But I do think that Pong was based on Ad Marginem .

Cinema makes a decent, though never perfect, matrix for our interpretation of video game artistry. It's true that I'm usually (95%?) unimpressed with movie narrative, but I have never played a video game with a great narrative. The best I've played is probably Metal Gear Solid, which was roughly on par with Patriot Games or Air Force One; acceptable but nothing special.

I'm beginning to think you're right about the completely free camera of video games eventually appearing in film, though that may have happened eventually in film without video games as technology for smaller, lighter, more mobile, and more programmable cameras was developed.

If movies were ever playing catchup with Klimt or Klee, they didn't make it, imo. Not that they should. It'd be great to see a couple try, though. It'd have to be animated, I'm sure.

As for good narratives (not great, just good, interesting narrative) I think Max Payne does a decent job.

But shouldn't there be a few video games by now that could be the equivalents of Bunuel's Un chien andalou, Bergman's Persona, Reggio's Koyaanisqatsi,Stockhausen's Song of the Children, Coleman's Free Jazz, Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica, Klimt's The Virgin, Klee's Ad Marginen, or Chagall's I and the Village?

Yes.

Glad you agree. Can you think of any? I cannot.

I regret that I cannot.

Alas, can anyone? There's got to be some masterful, artistic, innovative video games out there.

Just a few to get things started. Speaking from personal experience...

Half-Life 2 ~ I got a new computer in the spring and finished playing this game over the summer. This is the single most immersive game I've ever played in my life.

Sitting in my computer room, lights way down low, a slight breeze blowing from a nearby fan, I sometimes forgot where I was and that I wasn't actually in the locales on the screen.

For the PS2...

Katamari Damacy ~ Simply put I think this game is brilliant. It has one of the most unique ideas for any game that I've played in the last 25 years. The graphics were truly unique and the game has an awesome musical soundtrack. Better than the lame soundtrack discs they distribute with today's hot movies.

Half-Life 2: No question. But the "most immersive game ever" mantle is passed every 6-12 months as technology improves.

Katamari Damacy: The game sounds like loads of fun, and I'll have to get that soundtrack.

Halfquake: Amen is a mod for the original Half-Life that looks pretty experimental but not very successful.

A more useful label for what I'm hunting might be "avant-garde video games."

Well for people who play games left and right the mantle may be passed every 6-12 months. But I don't play that many games.

You're right, the Katamari Damacy soundtrack is very good. Quite a range of musical styles and techniques. I guess it's pronounced "Katamari Damashy" though, huh?

Hell, Japan has avant-garde playgrounds, you'd think we could have some avant-garde video games!

Lol, I'm not gonna let this topic die. Sorry to have hijacked your list, Dan!

I did some research and here are some titles I think might be among the most important video games ever:

1. Spacewar (1962)
2. Battlezone (1980)
3. Donkey Kong (1981)
4. Adventure (1979)
5. Zork (1977)
6. M.U.L.E. (1983)
7. Ultima Online (1997)
8. King's Quest (1984)
9. Herzog Zwei (1991)
10. Gauntlet (1985)
11. Super Mario Bros. (1985)

Notably missing are those games mostly important to the video game industry (Pong, Myst, The Sims, Grand Theft Auto III, etc.), those that are a basic translation of existing games to video format (Pong, PacMan, Parappa the Rappa, etc.), and those whose singular influence is overrated (Space Invaders had far less to say than Spacewar, etc.). Super Mario Bros. makes the list as the Chinatown of video games: it's not quite as innovative as Donkey Kong, but it defines its genre and is perhaps the most perfect game ever designed.

None of these titles breach the field of "avant-garde video games", however. They are more akin to films like The Great Train Robbery (1903) that fleshed out the techniques and technology of film than something like Un Chien Andalou, which used the medium of film to express an art as profound, shocking, and revelatory as the great masterpieces of other "fine art" mediums. Video games can be a "fine art" medium, though I predict the ratio of "art" to "entertainment" will never be as high as it is for music or movies, which themselves have an extremely low ratio of art to entertainment.

I'm just still surprised that I can't find a single title that shows videogaming as another medium for "fine art". Something like Rez indicates rather than realizes the possibilities, in my opinion. I'm probably just too demanding.

Lukeprog, how would you define the difference between art and entertainment in your second-to-last paragraph?

The line between art and entertainment as I meant it is not fine but fat and fuzzy. I think the easiest place to make that call it is the difference between films made to be art and films made to be entertainment. It's fairly easy to place Star Wars or Shrek in the entertainment category, and Eraserhead or Dogville in the art category. Many films aspire to be both, and many films fail in what they aspire. Gerry may be failed art, and Swept Away failed entertainment. I'd say Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai aspired to both, failed with art, and succeeded in entertaining.

These are flexible and vague terms and ideas, which makes discussion difficult.

I was hoping for a bit more. What does a film have to have to qualify it as art? Can art films entertain us? If so, how is that different from the entertainment we get from entertaining films?

I mean, I heard once that Star Wars is an allegory for fascism and the Nazis. Plus it influenced a big sci-fi craze and its special effects were very innovative. Shrek, on the other hand, is a stylistic triumph, subverting all fairy tale cliches with a crude, unromantic hero and an ass-kicking damsel-in-distress.

I mean, I'm being a little facetious, but I think people could definitely argue for the artistic value of those movies. Even if it makes discussion difficult, I'd like to hear your personal perspective.

People smarter, more knowledgeable, and better-written than I can make a solid argument that Star Wars and Shrek are art. Idiots can make a decent argument for it, too. Thankfully, you only asked for my personal perspective, so that's what I'll give.

There are formulas, forms, principles, and techniques for all types of film. Moviegoers who have never seen an avant-garde film can recognize the style of the "killer videotape" in Verbinski's The Ring "experimental" (or "out there" or just "really f*cked up"). Perhaps they saw Requiem for a Dream and knew its camera and editing techniques belonged to the realm of "experimental" or "art" films. My brother watched Gerry and Elephant and, though he didn't have the filmic vocabulary to articulate it, knew that it belonged to a special brand of minimalist film.

The formulas, forms, etc. of mainstream films are even better known. These are "popcorn flicks", "chick flicks", "rom-coms", "slashers", property-based special-effects kiss kiss bang bang blockbusters. Speilberg, Jackson, Cameron, Bay. I know nothing about painting but I can tell the different between Dali, Picasso, Klimt, and Hopper. One of these is not like the other, though all are great. So, too, I think most moviegoers know the difference between art and mainstream film (and both can be great), but it could take 1000 pages to distill the differences to a series of equations. If it's possible at all.

Between art and entertainment films are the "quirky" brand. I Heart Huckabees, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. There's also faux-indie: Garden State, Kill Bill, Lost in Translation. Both types stray just far enough from formula mainstream pics to be somewhat special, and retain enough mainstream forms to be digestible for casual moviegoers.

Whether movies of any style or genre are "art" is another question. That's what movie reviews and discussion are for. "Art" says something new (Un Chien Andalou, Persona), does something new (Battleship Potemkin, Citizen Kane, Last Year in Marienbad), says something in a new way (Memento, Dead Man), matches its technique to its message in a special way (Requiem for a Dream, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, overflows with ebullient creativity and good ideas (Pulp Fiction, 2001: A Space Odyssey), etc. Or usually, "art" does something that has technically been done before but has been done so rarely that the possibilities of that form have not been exhausted as they have for mainstream forms (Ran, Fantasia, and actually, many of the examples above). Most of these examples are so good they match several of these descriptions. I'm not normally a huge fan of "aesthetics" or direct realism as art. Return of the King is beautiful, but not especially interesting as art. Realism is often refreshing amongst the glut of exaggerated, sickening faux-reality of mainstream movies, especially teen flicks, but it takes a special statement in realism to be artistically fresh, I think. Italian Neo-Realist pics, for example, are now considered among the "art films", but most of them are of questionable artistic art for me, however enjoyable and heart-wrenching they are.

When I refer to "entertainment" or "entertainment films", I mean mostly common, overly derivative films that usually aspire to be nothing more than a money-making good time. I do not mean that art films cannot entertain. They often do. And many entertainment films have large doses of art.

I do not only give high praise to art films. Chinatown, for example, is not particularily artistic, but it is the single most perfect film ever made and therefore among the greatest films of all time.

I feel I will never sufficiently answer your question, but I gave it a shot. How'd I do?

(BTW, dgeiser13, sorry to hijack your list!)

Pretty well. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Tell me if you agree with these statements:

(a) you are equating "entertainment" with "mainstream"
(b) you are placing "entertainment" as the antithesis to "art", albeit with plenty of middle ground
(c) whether a film is entertainment or art is based on the intentions of the filmmakers - i.e., whether they are like the ones described in your 5th paragraph or your 6th one
(d) films intended to be art can produce incidental entertainment, and vice versa

If so, I have one last [rather silly] question for you. If you discovered Ingmar Bergman had actually intended Persona to be the high-grossing feelgood hit of the summer but was such a bad filmmaker that he accidentally made an art film, what would you call Persona?

Damn, I'm doing awful. I don't agree with any of those statements. I'll address them individually.

But first, my brief review of Ingmar Bergman's new attempt at the mainstream, written 1966: Persona is not remotely enjoyable. It is a difficult, frustrating film. What a happy accident, then, that Bergman blindly made one of the most thought-provoking, shocking movies of all time! This movie will bust at the box office, but in a few years time I see it on the art-house circuit and being analyzed as much as Citizen Kane or Man With a Movie Camera.

A. I am not equating entertainment with mainstream. Entertainment is a characteristic of a particular film. Mainstream is a type of film whose primary characteristic is entertainment; because entertainment sells and filmmaking is a business.

B. Entertainment is not the antithesis of art. It is possible to enterain whlie being artful, depending on your audience. However, if your primary concern is entertaining the average moviegoer, it will be nearly impossible to do much of artistic importance because the average moviegoer is not usually entertained by anything challenging or new. The average moviegoer wants safe movies above all else. Unfortunately, they also want to think they've appreciated something new and challenging and exciting. This is where the masterful manipulation of The Matrix and The Sixth Sense pays off in $$$.

C. It is extremely rare that a film intended to be pure entertainment ends up a powerful work of art. It is more likely a great work of art will be highly entertaining (Pulp Fiction, Memento), though it is often the intention of the filmmaker to do both. Most common of all is intended entertainment being stupid and boring, and intended art being worthless.

D. Entertainment is almost always intended if present, unless it's intended art that's so bad you can laugh at it like MST3K.

Gosh, I have a terrible record of explaining myself on Listology. My mind is an enigma, not least of all to myself; wander freely, but I'm not liable if you get lost.

Do you still need better directions?

P.S. I can't think of a film intended as pure entertainment that accidentally became a great work of art. Many argue for the likes of King Kong, Star Wars, Frankenstein, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, etc. but I don't consider them great works of art.

A. I think this one was my fault. Your explanation is pretty much what I meant, so I guess I was using a looser definition of the word "equate."

B. What I meant by "entertainment" here was not the traditional definition of "entertainment", but instead how you defined it in your 6th paragraph of your previous post - i.e., "mostly common, overly derivative films that usually aspire to be nothing more than a money-making good time." Do you think those films are the antithesis to art films (albeit still with middle ground)?

C. But is failed entertainment still entertainment, and failed art still art? If a filmmaker intends to make an artful, entertaining film, and fails at being artful, is it just entertainment, or is it both? How about if he's just trying to make an artful film, fails at making art, but ends up making a really entertaining film - is that closest to art, closest to entertainment, or both? Or am I just putting words in your mouth, and intention doesn't really matter to you?

D. Eh, nevermind this one.

As for your P.S., I do think those films do something new, which is one of the characteristics of art you mentioned in your last post, but then again maybe I'm just trying to shoehorn them into a formula for art, which is impossible.

B. Sure, but there's so much middle ground here that "albiet" doesn't quite cover it. :-)

C. I don't find failed entertainment very entertaining, nor failed art very artful. I might refer to them as "mainstream films" and "art films" as shorthand for their "uber-genre" (just as I'd refer to something as a "popcorn flick" though my friends and I never eat popcorn at the cinema). But really, going more in depth here is the province of individual film reviews, not broad term-crunching.

P & S. You're right, Star Wars and King Kong did do something new. But their significant contributions to cinema weren't things I wholly appreciate. Both have bombastic, inrusive, memorable scores: King Kong's perhaps introduced the style, and Star Wars's revived the prominence of the film score after the decline of Morricone's and Herrmann's popularity. Both also proved another step forward in the technology of using models to convincingly represent entities and environment, which is fine but I consider such improvements more related to technology that art. I vastly prefer the "bullet-time" of The Matrix, for example, which was not just a techno-trick but reflected the computer-simulated environment of the film's world brilliantly.

B. Fair enough.

C. Alright. Yes, I guess these weighty questions are getting a little too abstract. Thanks for the insight into the frightening workings of your mind though!

What do you think about video games as "art" taking a broader, deeper (wider? truly? madly?) and less technical definition? I'm not sure that I know what that definition is or whether it can be articulated clearly (accurately? truly? madly? deeply?)

If "art" is something that actively engages the imagination or if it is a creative act designed to do so then how do video games qualify as art? What I mean to say is: quilts can be art, scrimshaw can be, pottery can, jump rope; almost any of my activities in fourth grade can be considered art. (I was home schooled on a whaler out of Marthas Vineyard.) They involve sewing, whittling, molding and tripping on the deck. (The sea was angry that day my friend, like an old man trying to send back soup at a deli.) So if we get past the "aspects of videogaming which could be qualified as art" and look at the experience itself... is that "art"? Should it be thought of as art? Will it be considered art? (Truly? madly? deeply?)

That at all sounded a lot better in my head.

It's an interesting question, but not one I care to answer. I'd rather use "art" to describe video games when it suits the purposes of a certain discussion, and then leave video games out of the artistic realm when it suits my purposes for a differently-focused discussion.

Then I agree with you. Your eye is turning.

This is a nice little thought collection that asks what you asked: "Can games be something more than games? In other words, can they move people emotionally or intellectually in the manner of great art?" There isn't room enough to deal with the inherent difference (and overlap) between "games" and "art" but there is a quote from the dread Spielberg. Here's a small byte:

[Douglas Rushkoff] "What made Pong so exciting was not its accurate depiction of Ping-Pong or its relationship to reality. It was the ability to move pixels around on the screen, and an appreciation for the way the game designer is working in metaphor. "
....
In its emphasis on filling games with scenes and dialogue to establish character, Professor [Henry] Jenkins said, "Hollywood puts its effort into things gamers don't care about."
The Xbox 360 is now an excuse to discuss art... who knew?

You.

Nice find! Dr. Dread: "[games will come of age] when somebody confesses that they cried at Level 17." I cried for 15 minutes at the end of Homeworld, and recently fought back tears upon beholding the iron skyscrapers near the end of Half-Life 2. Video games have been capable of commissioning intense emotional responses for decades. Emotions are no barometer for maturity of form.

The greatest potential for gaming beyond entertainment is clearly education. Gaming provides an instant rewards system for learning unmatched by other platforms like books and lectures. More importantly, it requires learning by doing, rather than learning by stuffing your head full of data. The virtual worlds of gaming allow one to live decisions based on learning. Studying bell curve graphs in city economics can't compete with playing a few games of Sim City 3000, if the game is applied to formalized education correctly.

How can games be art? The article didn't address this question except to say that games should be less like movies, and I agree. The art should probably arise from twists on gameplay form and its participation scheme. Because art critics are accustomed to critiquing visual, auditory, linguistic and mathematical aesthetics for all other arts, it will be very difficult to determine how games can be art through gameplay and participation models. In the end, most critics looking for art in video games will probably fall back on the old models of visual construction and narrative prowess.

Thank you for continuing to inspire my pompous speculation.