I am quite certain that I fit no philosophical profile, libertarian or otherwise. As I pointed out to Bertie I won't rise to that bait. What I meant by my statement was that while I am perfectly capable of determining what I do and do not like, I would be uncomfortable pretending that I am qualified to select the "best".
I'll talk to Sirilyan tonight and we'll clear some deadwood and some iffy entries. I'd like to thank everyone for being level-headed and honest, just as I'd hoped... :)
I was offended - not intensely, but somewhat - by the over-all tone of the list. But, hey, no one was ever harmed by being offended. On the other hand, let me suggest that we can be harmed by NOT being offended. What I mean is, if nothing offends us, if everything is "just funny - end of story", that might be very open-minded of us, but we are likely to find that sooner or later some of those things that didn't offend us are going to sneak up behind us and tear us a new arsehole.
Since TL is a democracy-until-something-REALLY- offensive-comes-along...I vote for leaving the list as is. As I said, I'm agin censorship, even democratic censorship.
Ah...Jim...you don't expect either sk or myself to actually wade through that mega-page, do you? And shame on you for trying to provoke sk that way;-) As for me, I neither confirm nor deny that I'm a libertarian.
I have seen TWB, but it was a long time ago. I should probably see it again. I recall that it set a fashion for slo-mo violence in movies that quickly became a cliche, and that it was very long. No doubt that's not all it should be remembered for. My favorite Peckinpah movie is THE GETAWAY - which, come to think of it, I should probably add to my "Guilty Pleasures" list.
Everyone has been very reasonable and level-headed. I wouldn't expect anything less from the good-looking, intelligent, witty, well-rounded inhabitants of The Listology.
As noted, tasteless humor is a tough issue simply because opinions will vary widely as to whether something is funny or offensive (see bertie's and carmen's comments to view this statement in action).
Does tasteless humor have a place in the world? Certainly. Is it appropriate in every situation? Certainly not ("y'know, sometimes after you put them in the ground they spring back to life"). Is is appropriate here? Uhhh . . .
As a very broad generalization, I like to view The Listology as a PG-13 kind of place. Mature enough that adults can have meaningful conversations and throw in the occasional 4-letter word and off-color reference, but restrained enough that a parent wouldn't mind their adolescent surfing through unmonitored. Whether or not this will be reasonable or possible if The Listology becomes wildly popular is another story. But for now, it's small enough that we can have conversations like this as the need arises.
So, this specific list . . .
I'd say it's an "R" list, and would vote for editing it. I'm not mandating editing it; it's just my vote. I suggest this as much for tightening it up as for softening it (the funny stuff would be funnier if it weren't mixed in with the throwaway lines (which lines are "throwaway lines" is highly subjective, I imagine (I feel like Jeffrey Jones in Amadeus: "It has too many notes." "Well which ones would you like me to remove?" Or something like that.)))
I continue to reserve the right to delete pornographic or abusive material, but would rather save that honor for a more clear-cut case.
This has been an interesting conversation for me, because I really enjoy the other Listology contributions of the participants. I even enjoy some of the items on this list. :) Anyway, I'll drift off into inaudible mumbling now . . .
And while I have your attention, do you want to be an editor? As an editor, you'd be able to post stuff to The Listology home page (as often or as rarely as you like). E-mail me if you might be interested.
Excellent list! Easy Rawlins & Mouse might be my favorite duo, of the ones I'm familiar with (which is a bit less than half of your list, to be honest). I've only read a couple Travis McGee books, and I don't recall a character named Meyer, so I assume he/she appears in the later books? I think Skink & Jim Tile qualify as a duo, rather than just pairing Skink off with the hero/ine(s) of any given book. And I'd add Donald Westlake's John Dortmunder & Andy Kelp. And of course, Batman & Robin as imagined by Frank Miller in The Dark Knight Returns (comics for grownups).
alexlit has been interesting for me. I keep a list of books I've read (this years) but don't rate them all. I started playing with alexlit and tried to come up with ratings for books I've read. It might be interesting to compare a rating you gave it when you read it with one you come up with in retrospect.
Yup, probably A Fire Upon the Deep though A Deepness in the Sky hardly relates. I personally liked The Peace Wars as well, but perhaps just because I've lived in Livermore.
Meyer was Travis' economist friend that owned the houseboat (delightfully named "JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES")in the slip next to McGee's "BUSTED FLUSH". Yes Jim Tile should partner to Skink. When I posted this list I couldn't recall his name. As for Westlake, I shamefully admit I have not read anything by him. Perhaps I should try it. By now you will see my E-mail regarding the other message.
Sorry for not offering up my own analysis until now. In the face of such thorough and intelligent deconstruction, I am embarrassed by the simplicity of my appreciation for Unforgiven. In short, I thought it was a marvelous depiction of the darkness inherent to violence. In the world of Unforgiven there is no instance of heroic or glorified violence. And those that indulge in violence and murder are obviously tainted by it. I found it refreshing, if depressing. While being a tiny minority, there have been plenty of movies that depict violence without glorifying it, but none (that I can think of) that have so well depicted the damage that violence does to oneself.
And I thought all involved acted the hell out of that movie.
i've never seen a walt stillman movie....but i just saw boys don't cry and have become very much enamoured of chloe sevigny....so of course disco's on my list. i've seen a bit of it awhile back and wasn't *too* thrilled....but it was the middle of the movie and i didn't really know what was going on. thanks for the warning, though. :)
TRUE LIES gave me a major pain - except for the Tom Arnold character who made it chucklesome/painful. And it's a wonder Cameron didn't have the Titanic sink after colliding with a nuclear warhead. Have you noticed how many of his movies indulge in the pornography of nuclear destruction?: A2, T2, THE ABYSS, and TRUE LIES.
You've given me additional insights into the movie. Much thanks. From what you've said, I don't think we have any major disagreements about it. I won't press you to add it to your list, since it is a list of favorites and favorites are personal.
Btw, I hope you're hard at work on that list of favorite sf stories - I look forward to telling you what you should add to it :-D
Be careful using philosophical terms like 'libertarian' around me; I'm likely to try and drag you into a discussion about it. Have you heard of the libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick? His famous book on the subject is ANARCHY, STATE, AND UTOPIA.
I'm agin censorship. Really, I am. So I wouldn't argue that the list ought not be published anywhere. As to whether it should be published here, that's completely Jim's call - I'll happily accept his decision. And I'm not averse to dark or even 'sick' humour, as I think my lists reveal.
My response to strong misanthropy, however, is that it springs from a mistakenly narrow assessment of the human animal. We have accomplished wonders and are capable of at least as much good as evil.
You are right. Both of us (and of course, jim) think very highly of UNFORGIVEN. I always try to list favorites as opposed to best lists. My motivation for this lies in my libertarian nature. I am uncomfortable pretending my tastes are any thing but my tastes. I am still considering the sf ss list.
I am quite certain that I fit no philosophical profile, libertarian or otherwise. As I pointed out to Bertie I won't rise to that bait. What I meant by my statement was that while I am perfectly capable of determining what I do and do not like, I would be uncomfortable pretending that I am qualified to select the "best".
I'll talk to Sirilyan tonight and we'll clear some deadwood and some iffy entries. I'd like to thank everyone for being level-headed and honest, just as I'd hoped... :)
I was offended - not intensely, but somewhat - by the over-all tone of the list. But, hey, no one was ever harmed by being offended. On the other hand, let me suggest that we can be harmed by NOT being offended. What I mean is, if nothing offends us, if everything is "just funny - end of story", that might be very open-minded of us, but we are likely to find that sooner or later some of those things that didn't offend us are going to sneak up behind us and tear us a new arsehole.
Since TL is a democracy-until-something-REALLY- offensive-comes-along...I vote for leaving the list as is. As I said, I'm agin censorship, even democratic censorship.
Ah...Jim...you don't expect either sk or myself to actually wade through that mega-page, do you? And shame on you for trying to provoke sk that way;-) As for me, I neither confirm nor deny that I'm a libertarian.
I have seen TWB, but it was a long time ago. I should probably see it again. I recall that it set a fashion for slo-mo violence in movies that quickly became a cliche, and that it was very long. No doubt that's not all it should be remembered for. My favorite Peckinpah movie is THE GETAWAY - which, come to think of it, I should probably add to my "Guilty Pleasures" list.
Everyone has been very reasonable and level-headed. I wouldn't expect anything less from the good-looking, intelligent, witty, well-rounded inhabitants of The Listology.
As noted, tasteless humor is a tough issue simply because opinions will vary widely as to whether something is funny or offensive (see bertie's and carmen's comments to view this statement in action).
Does tasteless humor have a place in the world? Certainly. Is it appropriate in every situation? Certainly not ("y'know, sometimes after you put them in the ground they spring back to life"). Is is appropriate here? Uhhh . . .
As a very broad generalization, I like to view The Listology as a PG-13 kind of place. Mature enough that adults can have meaningful conversations and throw in the occasional 4-letter word and off-color reference, but restrained enough that a parent wouldn't mind their adolescent surfing through unmonitored. Whether or not this will be reasonable or possible if The Listology becomes wildly popular is another story. But for now, it's small enough that we can have conversations like this as the need arises.
So, this specific list . . .
I'd say it's an "R" list, and would vote for editing it. I'm not mandating editing it; it's just my vote. I suggest this as much for tightening it up as for softening it (the funny stuff would be funnier if it weren't mixed in with the throwaway lines (which lines are "throwaway lines" is highly subjective, I imagine (I feel like Jeffrey Jones in Amadeus: "It has too many notes." "Well which ones would you like me to remove?" Or something like that.)))
I continue to reserve the right to delete pornographic or abusive material, but would rather save that honor for a more clear-cut case.
This has been an interesting conversation for me, because I really enjoy the other Listology contributions of the participants. I even enjoy some of the items on this list. :) Anyway, I'll drift off into inaudible mumbling now . . .
Anybody else care to chime in?
And while I have your attention, do you want to be an editor? As an editor, you'd be able to post stuff to The Listology home page (as often or as rarely as you like). E-mail me if you might be interested.
Excellent list! Easy Rawlins & Mouse might be my favorite duo, of the ones I'm familiar with (which is a bit less than half of your list, to be honest). I've only read a couple Travis McGee books, and I don't recall a character named Meyer, so I assume he/she appears in the later books? I think Skink & Jim Tile qualify as a duo, rather than just pairing Skink off with the hero/ine(s) of any given book. And I'd add Donald Westlake's John Dortmunder & Andy Kelp. And of course, Batman & Robin as imagined by Frank Miller in The Dark Knight Returns (comics for grownups).
I may be wrong, but I don't think Blue Oyster Cult ever had another hit before or after "Don't Fear the Reaper"...
i can't believe how worked up everyone is about this... this list is FUNNY. end of story.
alexlit has been interesting for me. I keep a list of books I've read (this years) but don't rate them all. I started playing with alexlit and tried to come up with ratings for books I've read. It might be interesting to compare a rating you gave it when you read it with one you come up with in retrospect.
Yup, probably A Fire Upon the Deep though A Deepness in the Sky hardly relates. I personally liked The Peace Wars as well, but perhaps just because I've lived in Livermore.
Meyer was Travis' economist friend that owned the houseboat (delightfully named "JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES")in the slip next to McGee's "BUSTED FLUSH". Yes Jim Tile should partner to Skink. When I posted this list I couldn't recall his name. As for Westlake, I shamefully admit I have not read anything by him. Perhaps I should try it. By now you will see my E-mail regarding the other message.
Well put. Maybe I will add the film to my list.
Sorry for not offering up my own analysis until now. In the face of such thorough and intelligent deconstruction, I am embarrassed by the simplicity of my appreciation for Unforgiven. In short, I thought it was a marvelous depiction of the darkness inherent to violence. In the world of Unforgiven there is no instance of heroic or glorified violence. And those that indulge in violence and murder are obviously tainted by it. I found it refreshing, if depressing. While being a tiny minority, there have been plenty of movies that depict violence without glorifying it, but none (that I can think of) that have so well depicted the damage that violence does to oneself.
And I thought all involved acted the hell out of that movie.
The firebrand in me offers up this link. :)
<CRINGE>I haven't seen The Wild Bunch.</CRINGE>
Although I enjoy our discussions I refuse to rise to that bait. But neither you nor jim commented on THE WILD BUNCH. I was surprised.
i've never seen a walt stillman movie....but i just saw boys don't cry and have become very much enamoured of chloe sevigny....so of course disco's on my list. i've seen a bit of it awhile back and wasn't *too* thrilled....but it was the middle of the movie and i didn't really know what was going on. thanks for the warning, though. :)
TRUE LIES gave me a major pain - except for the Tom Arnold character who made it chucklesome/painful. And it's a wonder Cameron didn't have the Titanic sink after colliding with a nuclear warhead. Have you noticed how many of his movies indulge in the pornography of nuclear destruction?: A2, T2, THE ABYSS, and TRUE LIES.
You've given me additional insights into the movie. Much thanks. From what you've said, I don't think we have any major disagreements about it. I won't press you to add it to your list, since it is a list of favorites and favorites are personal.
Btw, I hope you're hard at work on that list of favorite sf stories - I look forward to telling you what you should add to it :-D
Be careful using philosophical terms like 'libertarian' around me; I'm likely to try and drag you into a discussion about it. Have you heard of the libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick? His famous book on the subject is ANARCHY, STATE, AND UTOPIA.
I'm agin censorship. Really, I am. So I wouldn't argue that the list ought not be published anywhere. As to whether it should be published here, that's completely Jim's call - I'll happily accept his decision. And I'm not averse to dark or even 'sick' humour, as I think my lists reveal.
My response to strong misanthropy, however, is that it springs from a mistakenly narrow assessment of the human animal. We have accomplished wonders and are capable of at least as much good as evil.
You are right. Both of us (and of course, jim) think very highly of UNFORGIVEN. I always try to list favorites as opposed to best lists. My motivation for this lies in my libertarian nature. I am uncomfortable pretending my tastes are any thing but my tastes. I am still considering the sf ss list.
Heh, Carmen, you know "Hey Jupiter" is really about *me* and *him.* Not you and him, whoever he is. :)