Just a note: all of the above is my opinion, nothing more. Even though I am strongly stating my opinion, I don't mean it to be read as though I am stating it as "absolute fact". The above works for me. It may or may not work for you. Though I am totally certain in my view and my own way of rating/ranking, I can also see where you're coming from with yours :)
Definitely don't read it. The ways they find other bunnies living along the way? You so don't want to know. I wish I didn't know. Wholly overrated book.
You are so right about Key Lime Pie. One of my all time favorite albums. Tim and Low End Theory are both great as well. But Key Lime Pie is truly under appreciated. The way Lowery makes the complex arrangements and absurdist lyrics fit into a conventional pop song is truly incredible. I like all of their albums but this is CVB's masterpiece.
The Devil Wears Prada is one of the only two books I've ever read that were vastly improved by Hollywood movies. The other is Thank You for Smoking. Don't read that, either. But do watch the movie.
"By personal observation of music as an art form, it's so far proven to be virtually impossible to make a masterpiece in less than, say, 10 minutes, simply because of how much emotional power needs to be accumulated to reach that level. It's rare enough that musicians create one in 40+ minutes..."
I didn't say "a certain length of time is required to qualify something as a masterpiece..." (seems to be your interpretation of what I said)
I would say: "a certain amount of emotion is required to qualify something as a masterpiece." That does, of course, take time to accomplish. And, based on what I've heard, it seems to be "virtually" impossible to do so in less than 10 minutes.
An 8.8+ has to be truly one of the most extraordinary works ever. Something that very few, or even, no one else could've done.
Many jazz artists have come up with works as amazing as Pork Pie Hat. Though it's very good, it doesn't stand out to me as a virtually impossible achievement, or any more emotionally powerful than hundreds of other tracks I could list. I do think it's a really good track and Mingus Ah Um is a great album, but I don't think it's even in the same galaxy as Black Saint & The Sinner Lady which is an experience so overwhelming I can barely talk/write about it. How many works are as powerful as that?
I'm sure it is "possible" to do create an 8.8+ in 10 min or less, but I currently can't think of a single example of one. I would expect that Beethoven is the most likely candidate to have one that isn't popping off the top of my head at the moment. An 8.8+ isn't just "great" or "amazing" or feature "an amazing moment/passage" -- literally the entire running time is continuously amazing -- one is consistently thinking: amazing ... wow ... oh my god ... and this continues on and on until the accumulation of such leaves one dumbfounded and awestruck and overwhelmed and astonished at the overall experience ... there are tons of great songs/albums but it's a whole separate level entirely in those upper ranges ... at least that's my criteria ...
As far as 8.8+ in less than 10 min: the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th might be one ... maybe Bach's Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor... Cecil Taylor's Steps, between 10-11 min (so doesn't really qualify), comes close (8.5/10). At a "per minute rate", it's definitely one of the most emotional pieces of music ever -- doesn't quite build up to 8.8+ overall, though close -- still, this gives one a good idea of how emotional a work would have to be to get there within 10 minutes. As it stands, it is about as emotionally powerful as Big Black's Atomizer. In other words, in 10-11 min it accomplishes the overall emotional power that Big Black does in 37.5 minutes ... pretty incredible...
In regards to something like Well Tempered Clavier: if many of it's little parts are 9's (if that's what you're saying), then is the whole accumulation of 2 hrs a 35/10? :)
Something that might help (or maybe not)... my ratings aren't necessarily based on "degree of perfection". Many little Bach pieces are "perfect", and so one could say: "it's perfect, that's a 10/10 of course." But hear (or read) this: they're not even attempting to be something close to as incredible or overpowering as, say, Beethoven's 9th so, while they "don't have any flaws" and are, thus, "perfect", they are also perfect within a much smaller scale than something like Beethoven's 9th. One can have a "perfectly little house, perfectly painted, nice carpet, everything works -- perfect", or one can have the Taj Mahal. Both "perfect" perhaps, but "perfection" within a totally different scale. Totally different levels of artistic achievement and architecture. The house is "perfect" -- there's nothing wrong with it. The Taj Mahal inspires an overwhelming level of awe, astonishment, etc. (Btw, I think Bach is one of the great geniuses in the history of mankind and the above was simply an analogy -- Bach is a horrible example, a band like The Beatles would be better... with several works Bach does get within range of the 9th: Mass in B Minor, Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, Violin Partita 2, St Matthew Passion -- I'm only referring to some of his individual tracks which are very good, but illustrate the difference between the "most extraordinary and powerful works ever" and "great songs/tracks")
Anyway, I agree: it's not the length of time, it's what is done with the length :)
I forgot to address this: "So let's leave that out of the discussion, but what about works that weren't made with an album in mind, and were intended to stand as a cohesive unit on their own?"
Doesn't make a difference. The ratings are based on the same criteria, the same scale, which is basically "degree of emotional power" or similar wording. It's: "is that one song/track as emotionally powerful as an entire 8.8+ album?" And, if not, how emotionally powerful is it? Is it as powerful as [insert lesser rated song/album]?
One keeps descending until the closest comparison is found and that's the rating. This is increasingly difficult to do the less one is familiar with many/most/all of the greatest songs or albums in the first place.
Hmm, I take your point of not discussing works like Pork Pie Hat outside of the context of their albums. So let's leave that out of the discussion, but what about works that weren't made with an album in mind, and were intended to stand as a cohesive unit on their own?
Take, for example, the Bix recording; when the cornet begins it's one of the most powerful musical phrases I can think of. It's not as long as a Beethoven sonata or Haydn string quartet, but what he is expressing is profound and beautiful--so why would it not be equal to some of their work? Chopin's Nocturnes and Preludes and, especially, Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Book I are some of the greatest achievements ever, and I'd say they rank with some of the best of Beethoven and Mozart and Coltrane and Davis, and better than many lengthy works by Shostakovich, Brahms, Wagner, etc. Artists don't necessarily need great amounts of temporal space to express their extraordinary insights, the Chopin and Bach compositions I just listed (and I take them as overarching labels for separate works, as to do different would be like treating Beethoven's symphonies as one unit) are certainly superior, in my opinion, to anything (anything!) Dylan, or Reed, or Morrison did. That's not a slight to them, in my view Chopin and Bach are astronomical talents, but simply an example to demonstrate that things like lengths are essentially non-issues, it is what is done with the length--whether 5 minutes or 50--that is important.
A masterpiece is a masterpiece. I get you're saying "virtually" but the idea that a certain length of time is required to qualify something as a masterpiece is absurd, to me. It's like saying something needs to be in 3/4 time, or feature a cello.
Having said all this: imo & de gustibus non est disputandum, et al.
Nope, not going to change my mind -- very sure of this ... Still, I did say "virtually impossible" (there's probably some in classical: maybe some under-10 minute movements by Beethoven [though no 9's immediately come to mind in the under 10 min time frame], maybe Bach's Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor -- isn't that usually just under 10 min?) ... By saying those you've listed are masterpieces (8.8+ within my criteria) you'd be saying that Mingus's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat (or any of those others) is every bit as incredible as all of, say, Irrlicht, or Blonde On Blonde, or Velvet Underground & Nico, or Astral Weeks, or, or, or... [insert entire album or classical work rated 8.8-9.2]. If those do actually inspire that degree of awe and amazement from you as those entire albums, then I envy you and wish they did that much for me. There must be thousands of songs that are 8.8+ but only dozens of entire albums -- which usually have the greatest songs within them ... Logically speaking, just think about it: how could that be?
Yes, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and working it out for myself -- meticulously listening to each and every one of them while also going through entire albums. I rarely put extensive lists together lightly...
Not that I expect to change your mind (!) but I have to completely disagree that masterpieces cannot be made in less than ten minutes. Analogously, there is nothing inherently better about an expansive novel than a short poem, nothing better about a massive fresco than a small painting. But, I realize you're referring specifically to music so here's just a few works that I think are flat out masterpieces and fairly short.
And of course there's plenty others, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Art Tatum, B.B. King, Etta James, Billie Holiday, Al Green, etc. I think what they do in a short amount of time can be equally valuable to what the likes of Schubert and Mahler do in their breathtaking, expansive symphonies... it's just a different vision altogether, one that I couldn't do without.
Hi, unfortunately I don't collect pictures anymore, but I do frequent /pol/, one of the only boards on 4chan that I can tolerate (other than say /adv/ if I'm feeling girly).
If anyone could please please please tell me what the movie is called where (I can only remember one scene) all these crows come flying around and they swarm on this one guy and stuff an I'm pretty sure he's some kid of half robot thing or something like that because one of the crows fly away with a nut in its mouth. There's also a main character who is a boy. Damn this is soon my head in so if anyone has the answer can you please email me at; xxdream-theaterxx@hotmail.com
Yep, criteria is the exact same as albums. If I rate a song 9.0 that would mean that song is just as amazing as an entire 9.0 album (not just a similarly timed portion of it, but the album in its entirety). For Black Saint & The Sinner Lady, if I combined the first 3 tracks into 1, I would probably rate Side 1 around the 8.5 range. Conversely, if you break apart a longer piece (song or album), its parts are very unlikely to each be equal or better than the whole piece altogether, hence: Track 1 - 7.6 / Track 2 - 7.5 / Track 3 - 7.5 ... If I broke up the last track into 3 roughly equal parts it would be a similar story (but with better ratings)... In summary, a masterpiece is always an accumulation of lesser parts. By personal observation of music as an art form, it's so far proven to be virtually impossible to make a masterpiece in less than, say, 10 minutes, simply because of how much emotional power needs to be accumulated to reach that level. It's rare enough that musicians create one in 40+ minutes...
It's subjective so there's not really any "right" or "wrong" here, but I should say that these ratings/rankings have been thought through and placed very meticulously. At this point, probably 95% of them can be considered accurate within my criteria -- no more than +/- 0.2 different than they're currently rated.
Sadly, the last novel written by Charles Dickens, left in its unfinished state. The story follows John Jasper, Choirmaster and opium smoker, whom (it appears) has killed his nephew Edwin Drood. As with other Dickens books, supporting characters are numerous and well-fleshed, so the audience can never be entirely certain who the main characters are, until the story is pretty much ended. Things were really starting to get interesting when it left off, with Jasper half-admitting to a murder and the opium peddler following him around. The real mystery will never be unravelled, so this is an entirely fitting title for the last story in a long a prodigious career.
Is your criteria for rating songs different than albums? Are the ratings even comparable? The first side of Black Saint and the Sinner Lady seems waaaaaay to low, but that's just my opinion.
Maria Callas - another great talent I've not experienced yet! I will check out those recordings. Though it may take a while. I spend much more time relistening to old stuff than exploring new stuff. As a result, musical progress is a very, very slow process for me.
This is frank ravalli i would like a copy of downfall film with bruno ganz i only have a vcr i hope you could record a copy for me on vhs the address 3905 dale rd #b modesto ca 95356
Oh of course, wouldn't take it as anything else. I appreciate your elucidation.
Just a note: all of the above is my opinion, nothing more. Even though I am strongly stating my opinion, I don't mean it to be read as though I am stating it as "absolute fact". The above works for me. It may or may not work for you. Though I am totally certain in my view and my own way of rating/ranking, I can also see where you're coming from with yours :)
I liked B12 and polyglon window. Didn't check others thoroughly.
r
This is also the first time I've ever seen Julian Cope on anyone else's favorite list. He's my inspiration...
Definitely don't read it. The ways they find other bunnies living along the way? You so don't want to know. I wish I didn't know. Wholly overrated book.
Also, stealing this list, too.;)
I'm just going to copy and paste your list so I don't have to type these out myself...
You are so right about Key Lime Pie. One of my all time favorite albums. Tim and Low End Theory are both great as well. But Key Lime Pie is truly under appreciated. The way Lowery makes the complex arrangements and absurdist lyrics fit into a conventional pop song is truly incredible. I like all of their albums but this is CVB's masterpiece.
I'm amazed by how many pet names we have in common. Maybe are there just some that everyone uses no matter where they are.:)
The Devil Wears Prada is one of the only two books I've ever read that were vastly improved by Hollywood movies. The other is Thank You for Smoking. Don't read that, either. But do watch the movie.
I'll be off investigating Plan B.
Does the highlight indicate completing? 'Cause I know you recced this to me.
Also, I love that you were unable to finish a Garrison Keillor. So many better things to do than read those three jokes again. And again. And again.
Ahhh, discussion is good :)
First, word-for-word what I said:
"By personal observation of music as an art form, it's so far proven to be virtually impossible to make a masterpiece in less than, say, 10 minutes, simply because of how much emotional power needs to be accumulated to reach that level. It's rare enough that musicians create one in 40+ minutes..."
I didn't say "a certain length of time is required to qualify something as a masterpiece..." (seems to be your interpretation of what I said)
I would say: "a certain amount of emotion is required to qualify something as a masterpiece." That does, of course, take time to accomplish. And, based on what I've heard, it seems to be "virtually" impossible to do so in less than 10 minutes.
An 8.8+ has to be truly one of the most extraordinary works ever. Something that very few, or even, no one else could've done.
Many jazz artists have come up with works as amazing as Pork Pie Hat. Though it's very good, it doesn't stand out to me as a virtually impossible achievement, or any more emotionally powerful than hundreds of other tracks I could list. I do think it's a really good track and Mingus Ah Um is a great album, but I don't think it's even in the same galaxy as Black Saint & The Sinner Lady which is an experience so overwhelming I can barely talk/write about it. How many works are as powerful as that?
I'm sure it is "possible" to do create an 8.8+ in 10 min or less, but I currently can't think of a single example of one. I would expect that Beethoven is the most likely candidate to have one that isn't popping off the top of my head at the moment. An 8.8+ isn't just "great" or "amazing" or feature "an amazing moment/passage" -- literally the entire running time is continuously amazing -- one is consistently thinking: amazing ... wow ... oh my god ... and this continues on and on until the accumulation of such leaves one dumbfounded and awestruck and overwhelmed and astonished at the overall experience ... there are tons of great songs/albums but it's a whole separate level entirely in those upper ranges ... at least that's my criteria ...
As far as 8.8+ in less than 10 min: the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th might be one ... maybe Bach's Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor... Cecil Taylor's Steps, between 10-11 min (so doesn't really qualify), comes close (8.5/10). At a "per minute rate", it's definitely one of the most emotional pieces of music ever -- doesn't quite build up to 8.8+ overall, though close -- still, this gives one a good idea of how emotional a work would have to be to get there within 10 minutes. As it stands, it is about as emotionally powerful as Big Black's Atomizer. In other words, in 10-11 min it accomplishes the overall emotional power that Big Black does in 37.5 minutes ... pretty incredible...
In regards to something like Well Tempered Clavier: if many of it's little parts are 9's (if that's what you're saying), then is the whole accumulation of 2 hrs a 35/10? :)
Something that might help (or maybe not)... my ratings aren't necessarily based on "degree of perfection". Many little Bach pieces are "perfect", and so one could say: "it's perfect, that's a 10/10 of course." But hear (or read) this: they're not even attempting to be something close to as incredible or overpowering as, say, Beethoven's 9th so, while they "don't have any flaws" and are, thus, "perfect", they are also perfect within a much smaller scale than something like Beethoven's 9th. One can have a "perfectly little house, perfectly painted, nice carpet, everything works -- perfect", or one can have the Taj Mahal. Both "perfect" perhaps, but "perfection" within a totally different scale. Totally different levels of artistic achievement and architecture. The house is "perfect" -- there's nothing wrong with it. The Taj Mahal inspires an overwhelming level of awe, astonishment, etc. (Btw, I think Bach is one of the great geniuses in the history of mankind and the above was simply an analogy -- Bach is a horrible example, a band like The Beatles would be better... with several works Bach does get within range of the 9th: Mass in B Minor, Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, Violin Partita 2, St Matthew Passion -- I'm only referring to some of his individual tracks which are very good, but illustrate the difference between the "most extraordinary and powerful works ever" and "great songs/tracks")
Anyway, I agree: it's not the length of time, it's what is done with the length :)
I forgot to address this: "So let's leave that out of the discussion, but what about works that weren't made with an album in mind, and were intended to stand as a cohesive unit on their own?"
Doesn't make a difference. The ratings are based on the same criteria, the same scale, which is basically "degree of emotional power" or similar wording. It's: "is that one song/track as emotionally powerful as an entire 8.8+ album?" And, if not, how emotionally powerful is it? Is it as powerful as [insert lesser rated song/album]?
One keeps descending until the closest comparison is found and that's the rating. This is increasingly difficult to do the less one is familiar with many/most/all of the greatest songs or albums in the first place.
Hmm, I take your point of not discussing works like Pork Pie Hat outside of the context of their albums. So let's leave that out of the discussion, but what about works that weren't made with an album in mind, and were intended to stand as a cohesive unit on their own?
Take, for example, the Bix recording; when the cornet begins it's one of the most powerful musical phrases I can think of. It's not as long as a Beethoven sonata or Haydn string quartet, but what he is expressing is profound and beautiful--so why would it not be equal to some of their work? Chopin's Nocturnes and Preludes and, especially, Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Book I are some of the greatest achievements ever, and I'd say they rank with some of the best of Beethoven and Mozart and Coltrane and Davis, and better than many lengthy works by Shostakovich, Brahms, Wagner, etc. Artists don't necessarily need great amounts of temporal space to express their extraordinary insights, the Chopin and Bach compositions I just listed (and I take them as overarching labels for separate works, as to do different would be like treating Beethoven's symphonies as one unit) are certainly superior, in my opinion, to anything (anything!) Dylan, or Reed, or Morrison did. That's not a slight to them, in my view Chopin and Bach are astronomical talents, but simply an example to demonstrate that things like lengths are essentially non-issues, it is what is done with the length--whether 5 minutes or 50--that is important.
A masterpiece is a masterpiece. I get you're saying "virtually" but the idea that a certain length of time is required to qualify something as a masterpiece is absurd, to me. It's like saying something needs to be in 3/4 time, or feature a cello.
Having said all this: imo & de gustibus non est disputandum, et al.
Nope, not going to change my mind -- very sure of this ... Still, I did say "virtually impossible" (there's probably some in classical: maybe some under-10 minute movements by Beethoven [though no 9's immediately come to mind in the under 10 min time frame], maybe Bach's Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor -- isn't that usually just under 10 min?) ... By saying those you've listed are masterpieces (8.8+ within my criteria) you'd be saying that Mingus's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat (or any of those others) is every bit as incredible as all of, say, Irrlicht, or Blonde On Blonde, or Velvet Underground & Nico, or Astral Weeks, or, or, or... [insert entire album or classical work rated 8.8-9.2]. If those do actually inspire that degree of awe and amazement from you as those entire albums, then I envy you and wish they did that much for me. There must be thousands of songs that are 8.8+ but only dozens of entire albums -- which usually have the greatest songs within them ... Logically speaking, just think about it: how could that be?
Yes, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and working it out for myself -- meticulously listening to each and every one of them while also going through entire albums. I rarely put extensive lists together lightly...
Not that I expect to change your mind (!) but I have to completely disagree that masterpieces cannot be made in less than ten minutes. Analogously, there is nothing inherently better about an expansive novel than a short poem, nothing better about a massive fresco than a small painting. But, I realize you're referring specifically to music so here's just a few works that I think are flat out masterpieces and fairly short.
Chopin's Nocturnes, Op. 48
Bach's Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C major, BWV 846
Bix Beiderbeck's I'm Coming, Virginia
Charles Mingus's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat
And of course there's plenty others, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Art Tatum, B.B. King, Etta James, Billie Holiday, Al Green, etc. I think what they do in a short amount of time can be equally valuable to what the likes of Schubert and Mahler do in their breathtaking, expansive symphonies... it's just a different vision altogether, one that I couldn't do without.
Cool, that makes a lot of sense.
Hi, unfortunately I don't collect pictures anymore, but I do frequent /pol/, one of the only boards on 4chan that I can tolerate (other than say /adv/ if I'm feeling girly).
If anyone could please please please tell me what the movie is called where (I can only remember one scene) all these crows come flying around and they swarm on this one guy and stuff an I'm pretty sure he's some kid of half robot thing or something like that because one of the crows fly away with a nut in its mouth. There's also a main character who is a boy. Damn this is soon my head in so if anyone has the answer can you please email me at; xxdream-theaterxx@hotmail.com
Yep, criteria is the exact same as albums. If I rate a song 9.0 that would mean that song is just as amazing as an entire 9.0 album (not just a similarly timed portion of it, but the album in its entirety). For Black Saint & The Sinner Lady, if I combined the first 3 tracks into 1, I would probably rate Side 1 around the 8.5 range. Conversely, if you break apart a longer piece (song or album), its parts are very unlikely to each be equal or better than the whole piece altogether, hence: Track 1 - 7.6 / Track 2 - 7.5 / Track 3 - 7.5 ... If I broke up the last track into 3 roughly equal parts it would be a similar story (but with better ratings)... In summary, a masterpiece is always an accumulation of lesser parts. By personal observation of music as an art form, it's so far proven to be virtually impossible to make a masterpiece in less than, say, 10 minutes, simply because of how much emotional power needs to be accumulated to reach that level. It's rare enough that musicians create one in 40+ minutes...
It's subjective so there's not really any "right" or "wrong" here, but I should say that these ratings/rankings have been thought through and placed very meticulously. At this point, probably 95% of them can be considered accurate within my criteria -- no more than +/- 0.2 different than they're currently rated.
Edwin Drood
Sadly, the last novel written by Charles Dickens, left in its unfinished state. The story follows John Jasper, Choirmaster and opium smoker, whom (it appears) has killed his nephew Edwin Drood. As with other Dickens books, supporting characters are numerous and well-fleshed, so the audience can never be entirely certain who the main characters are, until the story is pretty much ended. Things were really starting to get interesting when it left off, with Jasper half-admitting to a murder and the opium peddler following him around. The real mystery will never be unravelled, so this is an entirely fitting title for the last story in a long a prodigious career.
Is your criteria for rating songs different than albums? Are the ratings even comparable? The first side of Black Saint and the Sinner Lady seems waaaaaay to low, but that's just my opinion.
Sweet list.
Maria Callas - another great talent I've not experienced yet! I will check out those recordings. Though it may take a while. I spend much more time relistening to old stuff than exploring new stuff. As a result, musical progress is a very, very slow process for me.
This is frank ravalli i would like a copy of downfall film with bruno ganz i only have a vcr i hope you could record a copy for me on vhs the address 3905 dale rd #b modesto ca 95356
I remember your "/b/ folder" and it had a shitload of funny photos. Did you find anymore since you uploaded that folder?
Nicholas Cage
this may be offensive
and then there's this guy